Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 322991 times)

Online yelped

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2820 on: June 08, 2020, 10:47:07 PM »
As usual, @biobook, I love your posts! They are really insightful, and full of clarity.

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2821 on: June 08, 2020, 10:50:08 PM »
As usual, @biobook, I love your posts! They are really insightful, and full of clarity.

I just summed up what everyone else said... :)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2822 on: June 08, 2020, 11:33:12 PM »
I just summed up what everyone else said... :)

Your summary is as scientific as a biobook :P
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Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2823 on: June 09, 2020, 12:04:42 AM »
I asked about this partly because I know people in those communities who take this less seriously than I do, and I'm trying to understand that attitude. I can't attribute it to their lack of native intelligence - We share too many genes for that.

Also, I've been thinking about what needs to be done to avoid the kind of tragedies we had. I would have expected to see a greater awareness of public health issues and a push for more science education in our community, but instead I'm hearing that the way to prevent viral epidemics is to make smaller weddings and talk about not talking about LH.

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2824 on: June 09, 2020, 12:12:55 AM »
I asked about this partly because I know people in those communities who take this less seriously than I do, and I'm trying to understand that attitude. I can't attribute it to their lack of native intelligence - We share too many genes for that.

Also, I've been thinking about what needs to be done to avoid the kind of tragedies we had. I would have expected to see a greater awareness of public health issues and a push for more science education in our community, but instead I'm hearing that the way to prevent viral epidemics is to make smaller weddings and talk about not talking about LH.
The attitude is that they had it and moved on. And if you think that they think that they're actions caused this in anyway then your mistaken. There was a mageifa people got sick, people died, and now their back to life as usual.

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2825 on: June 09, 2020, 12:30:43 AM »
The attitude is that they had it and moved on. And if you think that they think that they're actions caused this in anyway then your mistaken. There was a mageifa people got sick, people died, and now their back to life as usual.

They move on, but the virus is still here.  They go back to life as usual, but don't take precautions to protect their uninfected children and parents.

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2826 on: June 09, 2020, 12:35:05 AM »
They move on, but the virus is still here.  They go back to life as usual, but don't take precautions to protect their uninfected children and parents.
The super chasidish and yeshivish have pretty much been back to regular since a week or 2 after pesach, and people aren't getting sick, so as far as they see it, it's gone. And since their shuls have been open for well over a month now and older people haven't been dying, means one of 2 things. Either shul isn't really spreading and therefore keeping them closed didn't make sense. Or that its finished, there isn't really a logical explanation.

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2827 on: June 09, 2020, 12:38:05 AM »
I said it a million times and Iíll say it again. They look at the reality on the ground in the communities they live in.

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2828 on: June 09, 2020, 12:40:14 AM »
The super chasidish and yeshivish have pretty much been back to regular since a week or 2 after pesach, and people aren't getting sick, so as far as they see it, it's gone. And since their shuls have been open for well over a month now and older people haven't been dying, means one of 2 things. Either shul isn't really spreading and therefore keeping them closed didn't make sense. Or that its finished, there isn't really a logical explanation.
Itís the latter. Why is it so illogical to be realistic??

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2829 on: June 09, 2020, 12:41:12 AM »
Itís the latter. Why is it so illogical to be realistic??
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing. I was just laying out the facts.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2830 on: June 09, 2020, 12:45:17 AM »
Can everyone here agree to the FACT that the communities that are open for weeks already have not seen an uptick?

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2831 on: June 09, 2020, 12:54:12 AM »
Can everyone here agree to the FACT that the communities that are open for weeks already have not seen an uptick?
I'm not in those communities and haven't seen the numbers, but I'll assume that you're right.

What I don't understand is why they conclude that "It's gone."  "It's finished." 

What do they base this on?  What do they know about how coronaviruses come and go?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2832 on: June 09, 2020, 02:18:24 AM »
What do they base this on?  What do they know about how coronaviruses come and go?

Here is what they do "know":

1. The medical community at large doesn't really know much about this virus. It has a ton of unanswered and unexplained questions and phenomena related to it. That same community initially made fatal mistakes in treating covid-19 patients.

2. A huge percentage of their community was exposed to the virus. Tests are only partially reliable. It clearly seems that those that got it aren't getting sick a second time (at least this season), and for most people contracting the virus isn't fatal.

3. They see facts and outcomes. Whether the "scientific medical community" agrees with premises underlying those treatments or not, they trust their senses. That is why those same communities will trust and embrace alternative treatments for a variety of issues, even if practitioners won't present establishment accepted credentials.
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Online Euclid

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2833 on: June 09, 2020, 02:22:19 AM »
Here is what they do "know":

1. The medical community at large doesn't really know much about this virus. It has a ton of unanswered and unexplained questions and phenomena related to it. That same community initially made fatal mistakes in treating covid-19 patients.

2. A huge percentage of their community was exposed to the virus. Tests are only partially reliable. It clearly seems that those that got it aren't getting sick a second time (at least this season), and for most people contracting the virus isn't fatal.

3. They see facts and outcomes. Whether the "scientific medical community" agrees with premises underlying those treatments or not, they trust their senses. That is why those same communities will trust and embrace alternative treatments for a variety of issues, even if practitioners won't present establishment accepted credentials.
And why there are so many anti-vaxxers in the community.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2834 on: June 09, 2020, 02:28:52 AM »
And why there are so many anti-vaxxers in the community.

This goes way beyond anti-vax. There are plenty that will give vaccines but will still have distrust of knee-jerk medical establishment guidance.

Case in point: administering antibiotics.

Another example: for many years a prominent doctor in the community didn't recommend giving Hepatitis-C vaccines, saying it's unnecessary in our community. He now gives them.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2835 on: June 09, 2020, 08:39:26 AM »
I would have expected to see a greater awareness of public health issues and a push for more science education in our community, but instead I'm hearing that the way to prevent viral epidemics is to make smaller weddings and talk about not talking about LH.

This!!!! We wasted an opportunity for our rabbanim to address these issues head on and prevent future outbreaks in our community chĒv. People were getting sick at an incredible rate and in the middle of all of it an agenda about weddings was being pushed.

Offline moko

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2836 on: June 09, 2020, 08:51:14 AM »

Mistrust of government and politicians

I agree with almost everything you write. Regarding trusting science and govt,
The scientists and govt officials knowingly mislead the country regarding wearing masks. Now, maybe they were justified maybe they weren't but the bottom line is that when you lie to someone, even for a good reason there will breakdown of trust.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2837 on: June 09, 2020, 09:10:19 AM »
And why there are so many anti-vaxxers in the community.
Percentage is probably less of what you think, a small minority who makes a lot of noise.

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2838 on: June 09, 2020, 09:40:18 AM »
Here is what they do "know":

1. The medical community at large doesn't really know much about this virus. It has a ton of unanswered and unexplained questions and phenomena related to it. That same community initially made fatal mistakes in treating covid-19 patients.
Agreed.  But if the medical community doesn't really understand it yet, wouldn't people wait for the medical community to learn more about this virus before declaring that the mageifa is over?

Quote
2. A huge percentage of their community was exposed to the virus. Tests are only partially reliable. It clearly seems that those that got it aren't getting sick a second time (at least this season), and for most people contracting the virus isn't fatal.
So they're deciding that "the mageifa is over and we can return to normal" based on their expectation that what they know about certain other diseases (measles, flu) must apply to this one as well?

Quote
3. They see facts and outcomes. Whether the "scientific medical community" agrees with premises underlying those treatments or not, they trust their senses. That is why those same communities will trust and embrace alternative treatments for a variety of issues, even if practitioners won't present establishment accepted credentials.

So they daven without the mask and SD because they have a gut sense that it's safe?

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2839 on: June 09, 2020, 09:43:19 AM »

Another example: for many years a prominent doctor in the community didn't recommend giving Hepatitis-C vaccines, saying it's unnecessary in our community. He now gives them.

This I actually find encouraging!  It shows that the doctor, in the best medical tradition, is weighing new evidence and changing his practice based on the new facts he learns.