Corona virus and your shul

[Euclid]

I can't. In my very limited knowledge, I'd hesitantly suggest that this may be unprecedented. If it's not, I'd like to know when in history this has happened before.

I know I'm going to get killed for this hyperbole, but on a smaller scale I feel like there's a parallel to rabbonim urging people to stay in WW2 era Europe.

ETA: I'm not saying that rabbonim are blind to what's going on. Rather that there is a halachic view here for their inaction.  Whether we agree or not, they feel that this isn't a present sakanah and therefore doesn't warrant action. Similar to what happened in Europe; by the time the sakanah was present it was too late. Iyh that won't happen here (especially with regards to school closures).

[Lurker]

I know I'm going to get killed for this hyperbole, but on a smaller scale I feel like there's a parallel to rabbonim urging people to stay in WW2 era Europe.

There was no medical consensus that was being overruled.

[Euclid]

There was no medical consensus that was being overruled.

True. Forget I mentioned this in this conversation.

(Was trying to make a somewhat related point about rabbonim going with what seems to be a logical approach (extremely hard to uproot entire communities) and making a decision based on the 'here and now'; which is what Halacha advocates for when there's a possible sakana.)

[Lurker]

True. Forget I mentioned this in this conversation.

(Was trying to make a somewhat related point about rabbonim going with what seems to be a logical approach (extremely hard to uproot entire communities) and making a decision based on the 'here and now'; which is what Halacha advocates for when there's a possible sakana.)

I think I understand the thought behind it (a Covid+ minyan will keep Covid+ people from going to a regular minyan), but I don't know that such an action has been taken before.

[Euclid]

I think I understand the thought behind it (a Covid+ minyan will keep Covid+ people from going to a regular minyan), but I don't know that such an action has been taken before.

(Yeah my comments were completely unrelated. Ignore them.)

[Lurker]

https://anash.org/it-almost-didnt-feel-like-rosh-hashana/

[cmey]

I know I'm going to get killed for this hyperbole, but on a smaller scale I feel like there's a parallel to rabbonim urging people to stay in WW2 era Europe.

With a handful of hospitalizations and almost no fatalities? Maybe those who think the Rabbonim are missing something have it completely backward.

[Euclid]

With a handful of hospitalizations and almost no fatalities? Maybe those who think the Rabbonim are missing something have it completely backward.

I wasn't at all clear with my point, my bad; ignore it because it's not on topic. Perhaps I'll revisit it at a later time.

[Lurker]

With a handful of hospitalizations and almost no fatalities? Maybe those who think the Rabbonim are missing something have it completely backward.

To your knowledge, is there a precedent for rabbonim issuing guidance to ignore a medical consensus that is not hepech halacha?

[yuneeq]

One of the Lakewood shuls I occasionally attend had a chazan the first day that tested positive. Not sure when he got tested but sounds like he found out during the holiday so he probably tested before hand. Good thing that no one there wears a mask.

[shulemw]

Its so sad to see the people here bashing the rabbanim....sad

I for me am asking my rav all my questions and following him blindly even if it doesnt make sense at all in my eyes

Even if he tells on right its left you should listen to him

Its a real pity on these people that don't have a halachic guidance/rav/rabbi whom they follow blindly. There lives will be much easier...

Whats the difference between a goy and a yid. A goy reads and sees all the news a whole day and gets panicked and doesnt have a daas Torah to guide him thru....pity on the yidden that end up just like the goyim being nervous and making desicions by themselves and living in panic.

Follow daas Torah like the yidden did the last thousands of years and you will end up living life happier and healthier

[good sam]

True. Forget I mentioned this in this conversation.

(Was trying to make a somewhat related point about rabbonim going with what seems to be a logical approach (extremely hard to uproot entire communities) and making a decision based on the 'here and now'; which is what Halacha advocates for when there's a possible sakana.)

There could be a parallel. I've heard it said that the lack foresight in that case was a part of gezeira. The same might be said in this case.

[Lurker]

Its so sad to see the people here bashing the rabbanim....sad

I for me am asking my rav all my questions and following him blindly even if it doesnt make sense at all in my eyes

Even if he tells on right its left you should listen to him

Its a real pity on these people that don't have a halachic guidance/rav/rabbi whom they follow blindly. There lives will be much easier...

Whats the difference between a goy and a yid. A goy reads and sees all the news a whole day and gets panicked and doesnt have a daas Torah to guide him thru....pity on the yidden that end up just like the goyim being nervous and making desicions by themselves and living in panic.

Follow daas Torah like the yidden did the last thousands of years and you will end up living life happier and healthier

We have different religions. The Yiddishkeit I was raised on is built on asking questions. Not blindly following the parish priest distinguishes my Judaism from other religions. That doesn't mean that we don't seek the guidance of Daas Torah, nor does it mean that we don't follow a Rov's psak even when we disagree. But to not ask questions? To abscond all personal responsibility in life?

I see very, very few people "bashing" any rabbonim. I do see people trying to understand the guidance that's being issued. Some have crossed a line, but they are in an extreme minority. Most here are just trying to understand the whats and the whys. It's sad that asking questions is looked down upon in certain circles for some reason.

[shulemw]

The word bashing was a mistake. I regretted it a minute later.

my main point is that there are rabbanim on both sides and each of the sides have legitimate reasons for their opinion.

So whats the point of people here trying to convince one the other of their personal opinion on the matter.

Why doesnt everyone just ask their rav and follow his advice (If you want to ask your rav why he told you what he told you, its your choice too) but I don't understand all the back and forth here. hopefully your rav doesnt sit and read here and doesnt change his opinion from forum readers opinions so I really don't get it.

[shulemw]

And besides referring to this as the rabbanim who told to stay in Europe before the war....is a much higher level then bashing...this happens when people don't seek Torah guidance and get swept away with emotions

[Lurker]

my main point is that there are rabbanim on both sides and each of the sides have legitimate reasons for their opinion.

The rabbonim who have said to listen to the doctors have been very clear as to why they feel that this is the halachically correct approach. I have yet to see a halachic explanation for disregarding a universal medical consensus by sanctioning minyanim for people who should be quarantined or isolated. That's all I'm asking for. Instead of any semblance of an answer, the only responses I'm getting are non-answers about how rabbonim are smarter or Daas Torah must not be questioned or the importance of blindly following leadership. (The irony of being called a sheep is not lost on me.)

[shaulyaakov]

Basically the Daas Torah since Shavous has basically been:

- Corona is over
- Mask wearing and distancing is unneeded
- Even if there's a second wave, the cases are mild
- The laws about capacity controls aren't binding
- you shouldn't get tested so that schools don't get shut down
- if you do test positive, you don't need to follow the medical directives to isolate as long as you go to a private minyan

If very much trying to figure out what the sources for these are, as it seems so contrary to the normal Halachic directive to take extraordinary efforts in Pikuach nefesh. Other than statements to essentially blindly trust the Poskim, I have yet to see any sources on how these Psaks fit into established Halacha.

[Afrages6]

Basically the Daas Torah since Shavous has basically been:

- Corona is over
- Mask wearing and distancing is unneeded
- Even if there's a second wave, the cases are mild
- The laws about capacity controls aren't binding
- you shouldn't get tested so that schools don't get shut down
- if you do test positive, you don't need to follow the medical directives to isolate as long as you go to a private minyan

If very much trying to figure out what the sources for these are, as it seems so contrary to the normal Halachic directive to take extraordinary efforts in Pikuach nefesh. Other than statements to essentially blindly trust the Poskim, I have yet to see any sources on how these Psaks fit into established Halacha.

Have you made any effort to find someone to ask that can explain it to you? Or your too busy bashing everyone on DDF

[aygart]

Basically the Daas Torah since Shavous has basically been:

- Corona is over
- Mask wearing and distancing is unneeded
- Even if there's a second wave, the cases are mild
- The laws about capacity controls aren't binding
- you shouldn't get tested so that schools don't get shut down
- if you do test positive, you don't need to follow the medical directives to isolate as long as you go to a private minyan

If very much trying to figure out what the sources for these are, as it seems so contrary to the normal Halachic directive to take extraordinary efforts in Pikuach nefesh. Other than statements to essentially blindly trust the Poskim, I have yet to see any sources on how these Psaks fit into established Halacha.

Have you made any effort to find someone to ask that can explain it to you? Or your too busy bashing everyone on DDF

Or even to figure out how much of what you are attributing is even true?

[chevron]

The word bashing was a mistake. I regretted it a minute later.

my main point is that there are rabbanim on both sides and each of the sides have legitimate reasons for their opinion.

So whats the point of people here trying to convince one the other of their personal opinion on the matter.

Why doesnt everyone just ask their rav and follow his advice (If you want to ask your rav why he told you what he told you, its your choice too) but I don't understand all the back and forth here. hopefully your rav doesnt sit and read here and doesnt change his opinion from forum readers opinions so I really don't get it.

I follow my Rav, my Rav mandates all people in the shul wear a mask.

50% capacity max. We had 3 minyanim, 1 early, 1 a bit later, 1 outdoors.

Outdoor tekios multiple times for women and kids etc.

It's really not that hard, it just requires you to actually change your thinking

2nd day davening was over 4 hours long, with a mask on.. it really isn't so bad (I came late in my defense 🤣)