Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 410754 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2980 on: September 21, 2020, 09:02:15 PM »
Show me the science not an everybody says.

Here's a super long model about how long and how far particles travel outside:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0011960

Have you ever walked behind a smoker in the street?
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2981 on: September 21, 2020, 09:03:22 PM »
I did not say most of what you mentioned here.

If I followed the thread correctly, and without quoting the entire thing, you are arguing in favor of COVID+ minyanim as there is no medical issue, while the portion I quoted discusses using your head to make logical decisions instead of blindly following the rules.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2982 on: September 21, 2020, 09:06:23 PM »
Here's a super long model about how long and how far particles travel outside:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0011960

Have you ever walked behind a smoker in the street?

There's no question that outdoors is safer than indoors. Safer does not mean safe. Putting known Covid+ people on busy sidewalks is not the same as a Covid hotel. Gathering them in a tent for a few hours where they are creating a large cloud of viral particles is definitely not the same as keeping them isolated.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2983 on: September 21, 2020, 09:06:28 PM »
Here's a super long model about how long and how far particles travel outside:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0011960

Have you ever walked behind a smoker in the street?
Didn't read every word but the point they make about dispersion and lower concentration is significant.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2984 on: September 21, 2020, 09:07:43 PM »
Didn't read every word but the point they make about dispersion and lower concentration is significant.

Absolutely. I will not argue that it isn't safer. But we're talking about tens of known positives walking among people who, for the most part, are not wearing masks. You can't tell me there is no risk.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2985 on: September 21, 2020, 09:13:34 PM »
That boat has unfortunately sailed long ago. Deal with the facts as they are.

I am addressing the facts as they are. Are you not suggesting that COVID+ minyanim are a good idea?

Where do COVID exposed daven? Are they supposed to daven for guaranteed infection at a COVID minyan, or are they not invited? Would you suggest they daven in shul instead? Or are we simply making up convenient loopholes as we go along?
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2986 on: September 21, 2020, 09:14:08 PM »
Absolutely. I will not argue that it isn't safer. But we're talking about tens of known positives walking among people who, for the most part, are not wearing masks. You can't tell me there is no risk.
All the positives I saw walking to hear shofar were wearing masks
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2987 on: September 21, 2020, 09:15:41 PM »
I am addressing the facts as they are. Are you not suggesting that COVID+ minyanim are a good idea?

Where do COVID exposed daven? Are they supposed to daven for guaranteed infection at a COVID minyan, or are they not invited? Would you suggest they daven in shul instead? Or are we simply making up convenient loopholes as we go along?
The arrangement someone described with the2 groups separated and each one distancing sounds reasonable.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2988 on: September 21, 2020, 09:20:09 PM »
All the positives I saw walking to hear shofar were wearing masks

walking among people who, for the most part, are not wearing masks. You can't tell me there is no risk.

And if they could walk to shul to hear shofar, someone could walk to them to blow shofar. As I understand it, shofar wasn't the issue. It was the desire to daven with a minyan.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2989 on: September 21, 2020, 09:21:06 PM »
The arrangement someone described with the2 groups separated and each one distancing sounds reasonable.

Read the studies on outdoor transmission when everyone is in one place for long periods of time (a few hours).
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2990 on: September 21, 2020, 09:38:32 PM »
The arrangement someone described with the2 groups separated and each one distancing sounds reasonable.

I don't think that is the norm, nor do I think a minyan for exposed people is reasonable, but perhaps that makes me an extremist.
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Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2991 on: September 21, 2020, 09:50:16 PM »

Putting COVID+ with COVID exposed is a medically stupid idea. Even putting exposed with other exposed is not smart. You justify it by comparing to the risk of shuls where we've already convinced everyone to show up without masks, but I don't think we need to compound our mistakes.


Is this proven to be true? If someone is living in a household with a covid patient that they've had and have constant and extensive exposure to, does the risk of catching covid significantly increase with exposure to other patients? Is there such a statistically relevant probability that the patient in household was not contagious at all at any point, but other attendees are contagious?

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2992 on: September 21, 2020, 09:54:02 PM »
Is this proven to be true? If someone is living in a household with a covid patient that they've had and have constant and extensive exposure to, does the risk of catching covid significantly increase with exposure to other patients? Is there such a statistically relevant probability that the patient in household was not contagious at all at any point, but other attendees are contagious?

Yes, according to the super spreader theory which has been proven. Also according to reports, many highly exposed first wavers ended up contracting covid during the 2nd wave.
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Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2993 on: September 21, 2020, 10:00:40 PM »
Yes, according to the super spreader theory which has been proven. Also according to reports, many highly exposed first wavers ended up contracting covid during the 2nd wave.

Super spreader means that some are much more contagious than others, but I didn't see studies that showed that someone whose close presence other household members are in for hours every day may have never been contagious, and the fact that they never tested positive does not imply any element of temporary immunity.

First wave household members getting sick now is also not a proof. It seems likely that they had some sort of temporary immunity then, which they have since lost. This is not a foreign concept to us; that immunity from coronavirus colds lasts 4-6 months. It would be logical that many who had been immune then no longer are. These seem to be the main people driving the uptick these days.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2994 on: September 21, 2020, 10:02:35 PM »
And if they could walk to shul to hear shofar, someone could walk to them to blow shofar. As I understand it, shofar wasn't the issue. It was the desire to daven with a minyan.


That would require someone to go from place to place to place and blow over and over and over.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2995 on: September 21, 2020, 10:03:57 PM »
I don't think that is the norm, nor do I think a minyan for exposed people is reasonable, but perhaps that makes me an extremist.
I am only advocating for ones which are well planned and kept to.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2996 on: September 21, 2020, 10:05:07 PM »

Is this proven to be true? If someone is living in a household with a covid patient that they've had and have constant and extensive exposure to, does the risk of catching covid significantly increase with exposure to other patients? Is there such a statistically relevant probability that the patient in household was not contagious at all at any point, but other attendees are contagious?

There are numerous studies showing various settings to be much more likely to show transmission than household members some more than 5 times as likely.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2997 on: September 21, 2020, 10:06:25 PM »

That would require someone to go from place to place to place and blow over and over and over.

No, it would require a bunch of people to go to a few places each to blow. If Lubavitchers can walk for miles to blow for tens of thousands every year, I'm pretty sure Lakewood could figure it out.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2998 on: September 21, 2020, 10:07:37 PM »
Super spreader means that some are much more contagious than others, but I didn't see studies that showed that someone whose close presence other household members are in for hours every day may have never been contagious, and the fact that they never tested positive does not imply any element of temporary immunity.

First wave household members getting sick now is also not a proof. It seems likely that they had some sort of temporary immunity then, which they have since lost. This is not a foreign concept to us; that immunity from coronavirus colds lasts 4-6 months. It would be logical that many who had been immune then no longer are. These seem to be the main people driving the uptick these days.

Oh you mean that immunity is only temporary? what would the ramifications of that be?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2999 on: September 21, 2020, 10:08:37 PM »
No, it would require a bunch of people to go to a few places each to blow. If Lubavitchers can walk for miles to blow for tens of thousands every year, I'm pretty sure Lakewood could figure it out.
We did. You just don't like how.
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