Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 368862 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1080 on: April 18, 2020, 11:19:23 PM »
A legal question.

Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.

I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
In NY it is illegal to hold any non-essential gathering period. Social distancing capability is not the measure of compliance. Its whether the gathering is essential or not. Houses of Worship have been deemed non-essential.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-signs-new-york-state-pause-executive-order
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline Luvisrael

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1081 on: April 18, 2020, 11:20:41 PM »
A legal question.

Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.

I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
based on your location in your profile

https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/nj-information/general-public/can-i-attend-any-in-person-gatherings-or-ceremonies-for-ramadan-passover-easter-or-other-religious-observations

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1082 on: April 18, 2020, 11:33:16 PM »
A legal question.

Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.

I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringement
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0

Offline ari3

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1083 on: April 18, 2020, 11:40:44 PM »
Location matters greatly in this question
NJ (would be curious about NY as well)

Offline ari3

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1084 on: April 18, 2020, 11:44:40 PM »
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringement
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
What he wrote was that they cannot disallow something for a religious purpose if they are allowing it for a nonreligious purpose. In MS religion was deemed essential. I'm not sure if it was here.

Online avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1085 on: April 18, 2020, 11:45:53 PM »
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringement
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
What is similar and allowed to remain open? All the examples given in the statement you linked are closed in NY and NJ.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline KSMH

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1086 on: April 18, 2020, 11:54:56 PM »
A legal question.

Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.

I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).

In NJ its 100% legal.

based on your location in your profile

https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/nj-information/general-public/can-i-attend-any-in-person-gatherings-or-ceremonies-for-ramadan-passover-easter-or-other-religious-observations

This government "Q&A" is 100% wrong.
Its misleading and they are doing so intentionally IMHO.

You can read all EO, which I've done and
1) the EO itself permits it
2) Even if the EO would not allow it, the EO  would be void/illegal. They allow construction for affordable housing but wont allow religious gatherings.

I think Murphy's talk of " I was not thinking of the bill of rights" speaks volumes.

This is not legal advice, it's my personal interpretation of the EO and Law.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 11:59:42 PM by KSMH »
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1087 on: April 19, 2020, 12:05:27 AM »
In NJ its 100% legal.

This government "Q&A" is 100% wrong.
Its misleading and they are doing so intentionally IMHO.

You can read all EO, which I've done and
1) the EO itself permits it
2) Even if the EO would not allow it, the EO  would be void/illegal. They allow construction for affordable housing but wont allow religious gatherings.

I think Murphy's talk of " I was not thinking of the bill of rights" speaks volumes.

This is not legal advice, it's my personal interpretation of the EO and Law.


We went through this and I agree that it allows for travel for religious purposes. I realized that I don't think that was an exception for gatherings.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline KSMH

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1088 on: April 19, 2020, 12:11:22 AM »
We went through this and I agree that it allows for travel for religious purposes. I realized that I don't think that was an exception for gatherings.
There is  more then just this to legally allow it. 
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1089 on: April 19, 2020, 12:19:30 AM »
Attorney General Barr will defend you against state or local religious freedoms infringement
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-issues-statement-religious-practice-and-social-distancing-0
Except he does not consider this a religious infringement.
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Offline ari3

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1090 on: April 19, 2020, 12:29:06 AM »
In NJ its 100% legal.

This government "Q&A" is 100% wrong.
Its misleading and they are doing so intentionally IMHO.

You can read all EO, which I've done and
1) the EO itself permits it
2) Even if the EO would not allow it, the EO  would be void/illegal. They allow construction for affordable housing but wont allow religious gatherings.

I think Murphy's talk of " I was not thinking of the bill of rights" speaks volumes.

This is not legal advice, it's my personal interpretation of the EO and Law.
I agree that Q&A are not legally binding and sometimes contain misinformation. I read thru the executive orders before I posted the question and could not find anything clear on this although I may have missed it. From what did you interpret that it is permitted?

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1091 on: April 19, 2020, 12:48:19 AM »
There is  more then just this to legally allow it. 

Such as?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1092 on: April 19, 2020, 12:55:28 AM »
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/an-open-letter-from-dr-howard-lebowitz.html

As a PS, I want to share a story.

My brother was in Satmar of Lakewood on Monday following Purim, before there was widespread awareness of how bad this would get but once people started getting serious. My brother texted me that a friend of his who was there had fever. I told him to scram and daven beyichidus and tell the guy to quarantine immediately as well. He did, then told me the guy told him he heard Dr. Shanik said don’t worry about it it’s overblown, so the guy continued davening there. Some people stayed away but he certainly participated in a minyan.

A few days later, the guy’s mother fell ill. After a week, she deteriorated and needed to be placed on a ventilator.

Tonight, we received news of the petirah.

Hamakom yenachem kol ha’aveilim biyisroel
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Offline Luvisrael

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1093 on: April 19, 2020, 01:09:44 AM »
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/an-open-letter-from-dr-howard-lebowitz.html

As a PS, I want to share a story.

My brother was in Satmar of Lakewood on Monday following Purim, before there was widespread awareness of how bad this would get but once people started getting serious. My brother texted me that a friend of his who was there had fever. I told him to scram and daven beyichidus and tell the guy to quarantine immediately as well. He did, then told me the guy told him he heard Dr. Shanik said don’t worry about it it’s overblown, so the guy continued davening there. Some people stayed away but he certainly participated in a minyan.

A few days later, the guy’s mother fell ill. After a week, she deteriorated and needed to be placed on a ventilator.

Tonight, we received news of the petirah.

Hamakom yenachem kol ha’aveilim biyisroel
unfortunately I’m hearing a bunch of these types of stories .

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1094 on: April 19, 2020, 01:10:57 AM »
https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2020/04/an-open-letter-from-dr-howard-lebowitz.html

As a PS, I want to share a story.

My brother was in Satmar of Lakewood on Monday following Purim, before there was widespread awareness of how bad this would get but once people started getting serious. My brother texted me that a friend of his who was there had fever. I told him to scram and daven beyichidus and tell the guy to quarantine immediately as well. He did, then told me the guy told him he heard Dr. Shanik said don’t worry about it it’s overblown, so the guy continued davening there. Some people stayed away but he certainly participated in a minyan.

A few days later, the guy’s mother fell ill. After a week, she deteriorated and needed to be placed on a ventilator.

Tonight, we received news of the petirah.

Hamakom yenachem kol ha’aveilim biyisroel
This story doesn’t fit the “ it happened in shul” theory cuz as you
said the same “guy” who had the fever his own mother got ill R”L.
But the point is well taken. Frightening. Dr. Shanik unfortunately made a costly mistake with grave consequences.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1095 on: April 19, 2020, 01:12:14 AM »
This story doesn’t fit the “ it happened in shul” theory cuz as you

Can you explain this please?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1096 on: April 19, 2020, 01:15:53 AM »
Can you explain this please?
Since the same person who had fever lost his mother R”L. In other words had he quarantined and not stayed in shul it wouldn’t of changed the story. But maybe there are 2 “guys” in the story above. Anyhow it’s sad.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1097 on: April 19, 2020, 01:21:12 AM »
Since the same person who had fever lost his mother R”L. In other words had he quarantined and not stayed in shul it wouldn’t of changed the story. But maybe there are 2 “guys” in the story above. Anyhow it’s sad.
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ah giten

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1098 on: April 19, 2020, 01:24:34 AM »
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.
His attitude is the DR's fault, not the shuls fault.

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1099 on: April 19, 2020, 01:24:48 AM »
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.

This is exactly my point, in addition to that his mother should probably done all in her power to stay away from him as well.

The attitude that may have caused his mother’s death in this story (will stop short of outright blaming it on him, there were many people infected in Lakewood) also likely caused it to travel to other people who davened with him, and we don’t have any direct tracing ability but R’l may have (can we say probably?) had other grave consequences.
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