Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 226433 times)

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1100 on: April 19, 2020, 01:25:10 AM »
Where did anyone get it from that the guys mother died from him going to shul? The attitude which allowed him to go to shul may have been a factor. Some else may have caught it from him and there may be others who died from it as well.
Yeye. If I continue making my point Itíll have impeachment trial flavor.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1101 on: April 19, 2020, 01:25:20 AM »
His attitude is the DR's fault, not the shuls fault.
Definitely at that point.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1102 on: April 19, 2020, 01:25:46 AM »
His attitude is the DR's fault, not the shuls fault.
Youíre definitely not completely wrong, though even after all of the Dr.ís came out in unison there were unfortunately loud dissenters that exacerbated things
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Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1103 on: April 19, 2020, 01:41:41 AM »
Youíre definitely not completely wrong, though even after all of the Dr.ís came out in unison there were unfortunately loud dissenters that exacerbated things
I donít think we can easily blame the hamon am. Number 1, the overwhelming majority of ppl heeded the advice. Number 2, there wasnít a unified voice in Lakewood ever about the minyanim/stay at home etc etc... I would sadly blame the ďaskanimĒ וכו׳ וכו׳ והמבין יבין...

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1104 on: April 19, 2020, 01:46:58 AM »
I donít think we can easily blame the hamon am. Number 1, the overwhelming majority of ppl heeded the advice. Number 2, there wasnít a unified voice in Lakewood ever about the minyanim/stay at home etc etc... I would sadly blame the ďaskanimĒ וכו׳ וכו׳ והמבין יבין...
I donít like the fact that the hamon am need a definitive psak to use common sense and not endanger themselves and others. I have witnessed and heard numerous things from people in the last few weeks that have made me alternately laugh, cry, wince, and/or shudder.

As @aygart posted a few weeks ago (paraphrasing), I donít like the fact that my life and health is linked to the common sense of others
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1105 on: April 19, 2020, 01:49:57 AM »
I donít like the fact that the hamon am need a definitive psak to use common sense and not endanger themselves and others. I have witnessed and heard numerous things from people in the last few weeks that have made me alternately laugh, cry, wince, and/or shudder.

As @aygart posted a few weeks ago (paraphrasing), I donít like the fact that my life and health is linked to the common sense of others
In many of our communities there are many who are not equipped on many levels to have been able to understand the severity of this
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1106 on: April 19, 2020, 01:53:29 AM »
In many of our communities there are many who are not equipped on many levels to have been able to understand the severity of this
You right, however if every family physician has a different take and protocol on how to deal with this then itís very confusing. I wasnít referring to rabbanim... thatís a rabbit hole Iíll stay out of

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1107 on: April 19, 2020, 01:54:49 AM »
You right, however if every family physician has a different take and protocol on how to deal with this then itís very confusing. I wasnít referring to rabbanim... thatís a rabbit hole Iíll stay out of
Always thought you seemed smart

Also, at some point, most physicians came around to exhorting people to be super cautious on every level
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1108 on: April 19, 2020, 01:57:27 AM »
Always thought you seemed smart

Also, at some point, most physicians came around to exhorting people to be super cautious on every level
Some were way too late with tragic consequences.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1109 on: April 19, 2020, 02:01:05 AM »
Some were way too late with tragic consequences.
I had a sharp conversation with someone who went in to Dr. Shanik that Sunday about corona and repeated what he said to me. I donít want to repeat it because I think heís a real tzadik and fantastic doctor who unfortunately made a terrible mistake, but suffice it to say I very strongly suggested he switch doctors immediately and insinuated the presence of senility.

Iím also aware of a small mutiny in his practice that was brewing among the other doctors before he came over to their side.
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Offline Shmobaum

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1110 on: April 19, 2020, 02:09:08 AM »
I had a sharp conversation with someone who went in to Dr. Shanik that Sunday about corona and repeated what he said to me. I donít want to repeat it because I think heís a real tzadik and fantastic doctor who unfortunately made a terrible mistake, but suffice it to say I very strongly suggested he switch doctors immediately and insinuated the presence of senility.

Iím also aware of a small mutiny in his practice that was brewing among the other doctors before he came over to their side.
Hmm.... my dw was on the phone with shaniks office on motze and Sunday after Purim beseeching them to take steps immediately and shut down the town since her father and some siblings got fever weirdly at the same time that shabbos morning. They wouldnít hear of anything and just said no testing necessary and kids could go to school etc...I have family members who went to school from Sunday till Wednesday cuz the dr said no need to quarantine family members who donít have symptoms.

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1111 on: April 19, 2020, 02:12:41 AM »
Hmm.... my dw was on the phone with shaniks office on motze and Sunday after Purim beseeching them to take steps immediately and shut down the town since her father and some siblings got fever weirdly at the same time that shabbos morning. They wouldnít hear of anything and just said no testing necessary and kids could go to school etc...I have family members who went to school from Sunday till Wednesday cuz the dr said no need to quarantine family members who donít have symptoms.
Someone asked a poignant question upthread.. lesson over here is though, even doctors can make mistakes.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I bh did my part and managed to have a school closed early which likely resulted in some lives being saved.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1112 on: April 19, 2020, 02:24:49 AM »
A legal question.

Is it legal to have a minyan in a shul with only 10 people and social distancing.

I am NOT asking if it is a smart thing to do, if it is halachically permissible, if it will cause people to get infected, if it will cause aiva, etc.. I am asking strictly from a legal standpoint. (I am not currently davening in a shul nor do I plan on as long as shuls are closed. This is a theoretical question).
On this subject - from http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2020/04/news-updates-friday-isru-chag-pesach.html#more

-Fox News Tucker Carlson  presses N.J Gov. Phil Murphy on why he allowed the arrests of 15 men at the funeral of a rabbi in Ocean County in early April and why religious services are be part of coronavirus quarantine enforcement. "The Bill of Rights  protects Americans' rights ó enshrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully," Carlson said. "By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?" "That's above my pay grade, Tucker," the governor responded. "I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights watch video HERE

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/16/nj_gov_phil_murphy_vs_tucker_carlson_by_what_authority_did_you_nullify_the_bill_of_rights_in_issuing_this_quarantine_order.html

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1113 on: April 19, 2020, 02:29:43 AM »


Hmm.... my dw was on the phone with shaniks office on motze and Sunday after Purim beseeching them to take steps immediately and shut down the town since her father and some siblings got fever weirdly at the same time that shabbos morning. They wouldnít hear of anything and just said no testing necessary and kids could go to school etc...I have family members who went to school from Sunday till Wednesday cuz the dr said no need to quarantine family members who donít have symptoms.

This is terrifying. For all the blaming of individuals and rabbis for minyanim and whatnot, the main issue was a lack of guidance and clear communication from the federal and state level. How many lives were jeopardized because a local doctor didn't have/give proper information?

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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1114 on: April 19, 2020, 05:14:23 AM »
My friend joined a porch minyan after the new guidance came out from the Lakewood Poskim.

ďDeep in the background could hear the chazzan screaming from around the corner, as neighbors hopped from porch to porch to coordinate and discuss logistics. Post davening all had a nice schmooze together in the street. Corona guy went door to door to try to find a sefer torah and a basement guy found a place on upstairs porch to shelter from rain.
Rule #8 is the only one we didnt break. But then again the sefer torah was too far for me to hear.Ē
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1115 on: April 19, 2020, 08:59:45 AM »
My friend joined a porch minyan after the new guidance came out from the Lakewood Poskim.

ďDeep in the background could hear the chazzan screaming from around the corner, as neighbors hopped from porch to porch to coordinate and discuss logistics. Post davening all had a nice schmooze together in the street. Corona guy went door to door to try to find a sefer torah and a basement guy found a place on upstairs porch to shelter from rain.
Rule #8 is the only one we didnt break. But then again the sefer torah was too far for me to hear.Ē
So your friend is the type of guy who eats milk and meat together, he just makes sure they both have a hashgacha first. Should rabbonim stop giving hashgachos on milk or meat??

People shouldn't blame rabonim for those who openly violate their words. Rabbonim don't have to not say something just because people will take their words and blatantly ignore them. If they iterate and reiterate in the clearest of term how the minyan should be held in manners that would make it unquestionably safe, and that it should be immediately abolished if ANYONE doesn't follow ANY of the rules, then the people who become rodfim while attributing their behavior to the rabbonim will rot in a very hot place one day.

End rant.

As a practical solution to such madness - I think a good solution is for the local shul rabbonim to ensure enforcement of the guidelines in their own neighborhoods.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1116 on: April 19, 2020, 09:34:49 AM »
On this subject - from http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2020/04/news-updates-friday-isru-chag-pesach.html#more

-Fox News Tucker Carlson  presses N.J Gov. Phil Murphy on why he allowed the arrests of 15 men at the funeral of a rabbi in Ocean County in early April and why religious services are be part of coronavirus quarantine enforcement. "The Bill of Rights  protects Americans' rights ó enshrines their right to practice their religion as they see fit and to congregate together to assemble peacefully," Carlson said. "By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?" "That's above my pay grade, Tucker," the governor responded. "I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights watch video HERE

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/16/nj_gov_phil_murphy_vs_tucker_carlson_by_what_authority_did_you_nullify_the_bill_of_rights_in_issuing_this_quarantine_order.html
Tucker is nothing but a political hack but I watched it anyway. That wasn't the smartest line but he did go on to say lawyers look at everything he does.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1117 on: April 19, 2020, 09:35:50 AM »
So your friend is the type of guy who eats milk and meat together, he just makes sure they both have a hashgacha first. Should rabbonim stop giving hashgachos on milk or meat??

People shouldn't blame rabonim for those who openly violate their words. Rabbonim don't have to not say something just because people will take their words and blatantly ignore them. If they iterate and reiterate in the clearest of term how the minyan should be held in manners that would make it unquestionably safe, and that it should be immediately abolished if ANYONE doesn't follow ANY of the rules, then the people who become rodfim while attributing their behavior to the rabbonim will rot in a very hot place one day.

End rant.

As a practical solution to such madness - I think a good solution is for the local shul rabbonim to ensure enforcement of the guidelines in their own neighborhoods.
Much of what we do are gedarim on top of gedarim as those Rabbis knew that we would falter otherwise.

If people won't listen to protect their own lives and the lives of others then more gedarim are needed.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1118 on: April 19, 2020, 09:46:33 AM »

This is terrifying. For all the blaming of individuals and rabbis for minyanim and whatnot, the main issue was a lack of guidance and clear communication from the federal and state level. How many lives were jeopardized because a local doctor didn't have/give proper information?

Actually, itís worse. Dr. Shanik in Lakewood is the true Posek Acharon on all medical related matters for the Yeshivish community, so he holds more sway than most ďordinaryĒ doctors.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1119 on: April 19, 2020, 09:50:07 AM »
So your friend is the type of guy who eats milk and meat together, he just makes sure they both have a hashgacha first. Should rabbonim stop giving hashgachos on milk or meat??

People shouldn't blame rabonim for those who openly violate their words. Rabbonim don't have to not say something just because people will take their words and blatantly ignore them. If they iterate and reiterate in the clearest of term how the minyan should be held in manners that would make it unquestionably safe, and that it should be immediately abolished if ANYONE doesn't follow ANY of the rules, then the people who become rodfim while attributing their behavior to the rabbonim will rot in a very hot place one day.

End rant.

As a practical solution to such madness - I think a good solution is for the local shul rabbonim to ensure enforcement of the guidelines in their own neighborhoods.
Youíre right about the local Rabbanim enforcing but a major problem is that no matter how clear cut and strong the wording is many just excuse disregard of the details by saying itís ďHatzalaĒ and ďaskanimĒ overreacting and applying pressure and not really a psak
Tucker is nothing but a political hack but I watched it anyway. That wasn't the smartest line but he did go on to say lawyers look at everything he does.
It was embarrassing and although I donít agree with him on this Tucker has actually been pretty level-headed overall, even early on
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