Corona virus and your shul

[Lurker]

I will hopefully have video evidence sometime next week.

I hope you don't.

[Yehuda57]

If things are as @hvaces42 describes, can you really blame people that see that for being angry?

BTW, I don't doubt anything he is saying, and it's horrifying.

[hvaces42]

You are obviously not in BP or Williamsburg @Yehuda57 There is a poloce car stationed outside Satmar on 52nd Street counting how many people are going in and out. I'm jealous of those areas where Jews are keeping the rules. Im saddened that my neighbors and most of Boro Park cannot in one way or another do the right thing. I invite you to come here any day at 9am and 7pm. I wish I was making it up.

[flyingace]

Having been a Hatzolah member who was Mechalel Shabbos for goyim because of Aiva I think maybe I have a little to contribute to that conversation. Again...we are mechalel SHABBOS, YOM KIPPUR etc for goyim because of Aiva...we can surely stop your minyan for it. You are absolutely clueless!
I will hopefully have video evidence sometime next week.

I get your anger and totally agree with you, but I don't think the video/expose route will accomplish anything except more aiva.

[hvaces42]

I hope you don't.

I didnt say I would post it. But its going to happen
 Thank you Hashem for gishmei bracha that keeps minyanism at bay today. Because the sefer torah is kept inside and they are not mevazeh it by reading it on the street.

[neveryou]

Having been a Hatzolah member who was Mechalel Shabbos for goyim because of Aiva I think maybe I have a little to contribute to that conversation. Again...we are mechalel SHABBOS, YOM KIPPUR etc for goyim because of Aiva...we can surely stop your minyan for it. You are absolutely clueless!
I will hopefully have video evidence sometime next week.

According to the strict letter of Halacha saving a non-Jews life on Shabbos by doing a Melacha (forbidden acts) is not permitted; To quote the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 92:1 "Shabbos is pushed aside for Sakonas Nefoshos (life & death situations).. therefore it is a Mitzvah to desecrate Shaboss for a Kosher person (even if he sometimes does sins) who is in mortal danger" (See also the uncensored Shulchan Aruch Yore Dei'ah 158:1).
One of the answers above misrepresented R. M. Feinstein's words by saying "To quote R' Moshe Feinsten, "A refusal to treat a non-Jew on the Sabbath would be totally unacceptable...", the impression is that is is Halachikly unacceptable when in reality he's saying that it is socially unacceptable. In the Teshuvah itself RMF says to try to avoid the situation and he's only talking about a doctor who by law has the obligation to heal the sick or otherwise face repercussions. In the end he concludes with the words "one can rule that it (inaction by a doctor) is like a Sakanah (danger) and therefore one may permit it".
For a short synopsis of some of the sources mentioned in the aforementioned answer, see Shearim Metzuyanim Bahalacha 92:1, 1) He brings an argument between the Pri Megadim who says we do not desecrate Shabbos for one who doesn't keep Shabbos Litai'ovon (for convenience reasons) and the Maharam Shik who is not sure about it. 2) He quotes the Pri Megadim who says that we do not desecrate Shabbos for a non-Jew and for one who doesn't keep Shabbos Lihach'is ('to anger G-d'). 3) He quotes the Chassam Sofer who says it is probably Halachakly permissible nowadays to ride in a wagon driven by a non-Jew to heal a non-Jew since inaction will cause the non-Jews to hate us for it and it may lead to danger for Jews. 4) He quotes the Divrei Chaim who says that a doctor is only allowed to desecrate Shabbos by doing actions prohibited by the sages but not by doing actions forbidden by Torah law. 5) He quotes the Yad Sholom who says that if by government law the doctor must desecrate Shabbos even by doing actions forbidden by Torah law, it may be permitted.

[israshot]

3) the average person isn't seeing what @hvaces42 is.

As someone who has to go around (Brooklyn) for work, it's worse than what @hvaces42 describes, at least in Williamsburg. Streets are full with children, ppl walking to Minyonim, toys stores trying to open etc. I don't blame them, most families have tiny apartments and it's very hard to maintain them at home.
Maybe the average person doesn't go out much but I see it first hand.

[Dan]

Oy. I don't have time to break this down the way it should be, but 1) bringing up the black plague and trying to connect to Corona? I expect better from you.

2) he is one person in one neighborhood. The overwhelming majority of Orthodox communities - in the tri state area and across the country - were and are ahead of government regulations.

3) the average person isn't seeing what @hvaces42 is.

4) people are breaking the rules in larger numbers and in more flagrant ways than Orthodox Jews, but for many reasons only we are known about. We get a failing grade, but all the churches that remained open are fine? It's not about "but officer, he was speeding. It's not an excuse. We should see *why* the officer keeps pulling me over and consistently ignores everyone else.

Most egregious is saying that it's Jews' fault. "we need to be better" if one thing. But "maybe blaming Jews for the plague isn't just anti semitism" is quite another. When the virus attacked queens, no one blamed the locals. Same for the Bronx or any other place in NYC. Not because they were practicing social distancing better than us, they weren't. Try figure out why.

I have no issue with pointing out people who are breaking the rules. They should be shamed, fined, whatever it takes. But for that to turn in to sweeping generalizations? No.

(why does it feel like I've written the same piece 1800 times on this forum?)

Fair enough.

Why is it than NY seems to have a harder time following the rules anyway? Is it the smaller living space? General attitude that it's not my problem?

[hvaces42]

According to the strict letter of Halacha saving a non-Jews life on Shabbos by doing a Melacha (forbidden acts) is not permitted; To quote the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 92:1 "Shabbos is pushed aside for Sakonas Nefoshos (life & death situations).. therefore it is a Mitzvah to desecrate Shaboss for a Kosher person (even if he sometimes does sins) who is in mortal danger" (See also the uncensored Shulchan Aruch Yore Dei'ah 158:1).
One of the answers above misrepresented R. M. Feinstein's words by saying "To quote R' Moshe Feinsten, "A refusal to treat a non-Jew on the Sabbath would be totally unacceptable...", the impression is that is is Halachikly unacceptable when in reality he's saying that it is socially unacceptable. In the Teshuvah itself RMF says to try to avoid the situation and he's only talking about a doctor who by law has the obligation to heal the sick or otherwise face repercussions. In the end he concludes with the words "one can rule that it (inaction by a doctor) is like a Sakanah (danger) and therefore one may permit it".
For a short synopsis of some of the sources mentioned in the aforementioned answer, see Shearim Metzuyanim Bahalacha 92:1, 1) He brings an argument between the Pri Megadim who says we do not desecrate Shabbos for one who doesn't keep Shabbos Litai'ovon (for convenience reasons) and the Maharam Shik who is not sure about it. 2) He quotes the Pri Megadim who says that we do not desecrate Shabbos for a non-Jew and for one who doesn't keep Shabbos Lihach'is ('to anger G-d'). 3) He quotes the Chassam Sofer who says it is probably Halachakly permissible nowadays to ride in a wagon driven by a non-Jew to heal a non-Jew since inaction will cause the non-Jews to hate us for it and it may lead to danger for Jews. 4) He quotes the Divrei Chaim who says that a doctor is only allowed to desecrate Shabbos by doing actions prohibited by the sages but not by doing actions forbidden by Torah law. 5) He quotes the Yad Sholom who says that if by government law the doctor must desecrate Shabbos even by doing actions forbidden by Torah law, it may be permitted.

ROTFLMAO
You know better than every posek who issued a psak in the last 50 years for Hatzolah

[neveryou]

Oy. I don't have time to break this down the way it should be, but 1) bringing up the black plague and trying to connect to Corona? I expect better from you.

2) he is one person in one neighborhood. The overwhelming majority of Orthodox communities - in the tri state area and across the country - were and are ahead of government regulations.

3) the average person isn't seeing what @hvaces42 is.

4) people are breaking the rules in larger numbers and in more flagrant ways than Orthodox Jews, but for many reasons only we are known about. We get a failing grade, but all the churches that remained open are fine? It's not about "but officer, he was speeding. It's not an excuse. We should see *why* the officer keeps pulling me over and consistently ignores everyone else.

Most egregious is saying that it's Jews' fault. "we need to be better" if one thing. But "maybe blaming Jews for the plague isn't just anti semitism" is quite another. When the virus attacked queens, no one blamed the locals. Same for the Bronx or any other place in NYC. Not because they were practicing social distancing better than us, they weren't. Try figure out why.

I have no issue with pointing out people who are breaking the rules. They should be shamed, fined, whatever it takes. But for that to turn in to sweeping generalizations? No.

(why does it feel like I've written the same piece 1800 times on this forum?)

Agree 100%

Just that many people on these forums like blaming jews more than the goyim

It's like the self hating jews, they're worst

Or like in israel when the chareidi are held to a different standard than the chilonim

[flyingace]

As someone who has to go around (Brooklyn) for work, it's worse than what @hvaces42 describes, at least in Williamsburg. Streets are full with children, ppl walking to Minyonim, toys stores trying to open etc. I don't blame them, most families have tiny apartments and it's very hard to maintain them at home.
Maybe the average person doesn't go out much but I see it first hand.

It is not illegal to go for a walk with your kids, or for your kids to play outside. City streets with hundreds of kids on them are not conducive to social distancing.

[Yehuda57]

Fair enough.

Why is it than NY seems to have a harder time following the rules anyway? Is it the smaller living space? General attitude that it's not my problem?

Imagine being isolated/ quarantined with 3-5 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment.

That's only part of it

[Lurker]

I didnt say I would post it. But its going to happen
 Thank you Hashem for gishmei bracha that keeps minyanism at bay today. Because the sefer torah is kept inside and they are not mevazeh it by reading it on the street.

I was more hoping you wouldn't have what to film... we all have our fantasies.

[israshot]

Is it the smaller living space?

How many families with 2-3 children live in a 1 bedroom...

[Dan]

Agree 100%

Just that many people on these forums like blaming jews more than the goyim

It's like the self hating jews, they're worst

Or like in israel when the chareidi are held to a different standard than the chilonim

This isn't us vs. them. We need to be a light unto the nations!

[neveryou]

Fair enough.

Why is it than NY seems to have a harder time following the rules anyway? Is it the smaller living space? General attitude that it's not my problem?

People are angry all over the country
people want the country open
People are starting to protest
its not only the Jews in nyc

[Dan]

Imagine being isolated/ quarantined with 3-5 kids in a 2 bedroom apartment.

That's only part of it

I can't, but then again I can't imagine living like that in the first place.

[israshot]

It is not illegal to go for a walk with your kids, or for your kids to play outside. City streets with hundreds of kids on them are not conducive to social distancing.

I'm not talking about the legal part (though social distancing is not respected), it's the picture it gives.

[hvaces42]

It is not illegal to go for a walk with your kids, or for your kids to play outside. City streets with hundreds of kids on them are not conducive to social distancing.

If youre walking on the street with your tallis and tefillin bag youre probably going to a shul that shouldnt be open. Heard so many Hatzolah members complain early on that theyre job was so much harder seeing these people who dont care. Heard them say it over the radio too.

[Yehuda57]

Agree 100%

Oy. Time to delete my account and rethink my life