Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 374546 times)

Offline Chapshnell

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 4831
  • Total likes: 275
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: BP
  • Programs: Delta Skypesos, AA Shilling, AS Pounds.
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1500 on: April 27, 2020, 02:06:51 PM »
Trying to get an online version of it...but Burshteiner Rebbe put out an entire pamphlet on why one is not allowed to daven at home because of the ervah of sheitlach that exist in the home. His shul and mikvah are open. I just cant wrap my head around this anymore.

This is exactly what the King Menashe was describing when he said that had we lived in his times we would have lifted up the hems of our robes to run to the avoda zara.

its impossible to understand. I just dont get whats going on. Unless there are underlying issues

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5128
  • Total likes: 6394
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1501 on: April 27, 2020, 02:15:37 PM »
This thread needs to go away for good
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline flyingace

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1428
  • Total likes: 408
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1502 on: April 27, 2020, 02:17:59 PM »
Trying to get an online version of it...but Burshteiner Rebbe put out an entire pamphlet on why one is not allowed to daven at home because of the ervah of sheitlach that exist in the home. His shul and mikvah are open. I just cant wrap my head around this anymore.

This is exactly what the King Menashe was describing when he said that had we lived in his times we would have lifted up the hems of our robes to run to the avoda zara.
Why has no other poseik mentioned this idea? I don't think it's even worth talking about it. There was a story that Rav Pesach Stein used to tell about a shul where a guy got up and klopped the bimah, "lo yaaleh v'lo Yavo"... When asked what he means he said "Ich bin oich entitled to my opinion."

Offline Baglach

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 499
  • Total likes: 72
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1503 on: April 27, 2020, 02:22:49 PM »
Trying to get an online version of it...but Burshteiner Rebbe put out an entire pamphlet on why one is not allowed to daven at home because of the ervah of sheitlach that exist in the home. His shul and mikvah are open. I just cant wrap my head around this anymore.

This is exactly what the King Menashe was describing when he said that had we lived in his times we would have lifted up the hems of our robes to run to the avoda zara.
Do they not bentch or make brochas at home? Would be same ervah issue. And seriously since when is a shaitel an ervah?

Online whacked1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 2584
  • Total likes: 529
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1504 on: April 27, 2020, 02:27:29 PM »
I was just told this morning of a shul on 14th and 49th in bp that had a bris on shabbos. 100+ ppl attended....

Unfortunately this shul already had multiple casualties from the virus. Amazing that they arent taking more seriously

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 719
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1505 on: April 27, 2020, 02:42:56 PM »


And seriously since when is a shaitel an ervah?

Have you ever walked through geula and read of any of the signs lol

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 16468
  • Total likes: 7424
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1506 on: April 27, 2020, 04:19:43 PM »
This thread needs to go away for good
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline reed

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 547
  • Total likes: 65
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1507 on: April 27, 2020, 09:21:24 PM »
Dear Friends,

The news on the COVID-19 front shows more and more signs that home isolation and social distancing have been effective measures toward leveling the curve. That gives us something to be genuinely hopeful about.

At the same time, this necessitates a very serious call for caution. We can easily lose what our hard work and sacrifice has won for our community and our society. My message today is about how essential it is to continue to do what we’re doing. Let us celebrate the signs of hope but not let them prevent us from accurately seeing the bigger picture.
 
I want to acknowledge the sacrifices we have already made, for a moment.
 
For working people, confinement away from the work place has been a real hardship on many levels. For many, it has impacted their earnings in a significant way.

For children and their parents, the closure of school buildings and the distance learning model have created tremendous stress.  It has been extremely challenging, as well, for teachers and principals, who have been forced to create digital learning systems in a matter of days. Zoom is a great tool, but it cannot possibly replace the classroom. School tuition collections are down because some parents are unable to afford their payments without steady income.

There is so much anxiety about the future, about whether and when we will return to life as we knew it before March 2020, or whether there will be a strange and limiting “new normal.”
 
We wonder whether kids will be able to return to school before the end of June. What about graduations? Will summer day camps and sleep away camps be able to open? We wonder whether our planned milestone events will take place.
 
So many plans are on hold. This is a source of tremendous stress.

We, along with many religious Americans, wonder when we can return to our houses of worship. We urgently want to be able to return to the synagogue for daily services as well as Shabbos services.

We have sacrificed a lot. We are ready to be done with all this sacrifice.
 
So it is tempting to seize upon the good news and to begin to relax the inconvenient restrictions. But this would be a grave error.
 
The Talmud in Shabbos 151b tells us that we desecrate the Sabbath to save the life of a day-old child so that the child will live to be able to observe many Sabbaths. When we desecrate a precious commandment in order to save a life (and in this case many lives), we do so with a belief in the infinite value of human life, and with the hope and belief that the sacrifice will ultimately lead to the exponential sanctification of that very commandment, through enabling its observance many, many, many more times. 

That is the situation we find ourselves in. We must be patient for as long as necessary in order to insure that once we relax restrictions, we will not be confronted with a second lethal surge. (Let me remind all of us that after restrictions were eased, there were two deadly surges in the 1918 Flu pandemic). If we are patient, we will have many good days ahead of us. We will be together for many more daily minyanim and Shabbos services, if only we remain patient now.

Last week, fifty-seven community rabbis sent a letter cautioning all of us to carefully follow the safety guidelines that our doctors unanimously issued. Only four rabbis did not sign.
 
Most of us are not physicians. COVID-19 is a medical problem that only capable physicians can responsibly address. This is not the domain of laymen or Rabbis.
 
In a separate letter, thirteen Five Towns Rabbis (all of whom signed the other letter) stated that we will only recommend returning to public services when our panel of distinguished doctors gives us a green light.

A well-meaning Five Towns Jew wrote a letter to Yeshiva World News criticizing the letter signed by the fifty-seven rabbis in which we intructed our constituents not to have any outdoor gatherings or services. He correctly points out that there are violations of the socializing rules in the streets and outside of food stores. He asks, why can't there be services as well?
 
But his premise is wrong. We teach our children that two wrongs don’t make a right. We all must be attentive to the guidelines. People who violate the guidelines could harm themselves and all of us. Because they err does not mean that we should encourage more errors even for reasons of piety – indeed, especially for reasons of piety. Our tradition discourages this emphatically.
 
The part of the letter that disturbed me the most is that it was anonymous. Only a coward criticizes others without identifying himself.

We continue to rely on a large panel of local doctors who are cardiologists, pulmonologists, infectious disease specialists, and COVID-19 ICU unit directors. They are all Orthodox Jews. They understand our physical as well as our religious needs. They, too, long to return to their shuls. They, too, are pained that the doors of our beautiful institutions remain shuttered.
 
And they are unanimous in cautioning us that we must continue home isolation, social distancing, regular hand washing, wearing gloves, masks, etc. They are unanimous in emphasizing the absolute necessity of refraining from any form of social gathering, whether indoors or outdoors.

Unfortunately, many of our citizens are not taking this seriously enough. People do not understand that even when they feel well they could be asymptomatic carriers of the disease. If they recovered from the disease and think that they are no longer carriers, they could be wrong. It is not yet known whether those who have recovered from COVID-19 are immune to future infection.
 
Failure to follow the unanimous guidelines of our distinguished doctors puts everyone at risk! This is a matter not only of individual health, but of public health.

To put it most directly, if you infect someone, you could inadvertently harm them very seriously. (This is especially true of  people who are known to be particularly vulnerable to serious manifestations of the disease). And public health teaches us that it doesn’t stop there. If you infect someone, then they can infect someone (or multiple people), and that person infects someone, and so on – and we have another outbreak where many can die. All from one source.

Hence, there can be no religious services indoors or outdoors. That includes in driveways, and parking lots, on lawns etc.
 
I want to have the opportunity to return to public prayer. I believe in it and I miss it as much as you do. We all want to go back to our synagogues immediately. But we cannot do that yet!

Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives are sincere in their desire to serve HASHEM. But they are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone else’s blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan.

I fully understand that there are safe ways to make public gatherings by abiding by proper social distancing rules and with masks and gloves. But that misses the point!! This matter is so serious that we must create an extra protective layer around it, just as Chazal added chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha.
 
Even if rules are relaxed on the premise of the community’s adherence to strict medical standards, they will be violated consistently, even if unintentionally. We all know how hard it is to actually remain 6 feet apart, and how we instinctively shift closer and closer to our fellow human beings. There will not be supervision. Everyone will create their own gatherings. We will inadvertently  socialize inappropriately. People will be infected. The numbers in the hospitals will spike and people will die. That is what the doctors tell us. I am sure none of us wants that to happen. In order for this isolation to work, everyone must comply until the doctors tell us that it is safe to do otherwise.

I know that my message has been grim. And we’ve all have enough of grimness. We so badly want to look forward to something good. So let me return to my opening words.  I encourage you to hold onto the signs of hope. They are there. They are real. And if we continue to follow these guidelines, they will not be taken away from us, as they likely will be if we fail to do so. It is so hard to be patient. (Anyone who knows me knows that I find it hard to be patient)! But if we do this, then a time will come, and I pray it is not too far away, when we will safely be able “to observe many Sabbaths in the future” together, with social closeness, in our beautiful shuls.

RHB

Young Israel of Woodmere

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3112
  • Total likes: 3542
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1508 on: April 27, 2020, 10:39:36 PM »
@hvaces42 time to consider Five Towns over BP.. Its a legit case of "in the wrong place at the wrong time"  :)

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3112
  • Total likes: 3542
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1509 on: April 27, 2020, 10:50:55 PM »
@hvaces42 time to consider Five Towns over BP.. Its a legit case of "in the wrong place at the wrong time"  :)
Sorry, they got their fair share too:
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=32704.msg2237192#msg2237192

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 3148
  • Total likes: 1302
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1510 on: April 27, 2020, 10:56:32 PM »
Excellent. Let's export the garbage from this thread to as many other threads as possible. Way to mutilate DDF

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 3148
  • Total likes: 1302
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1511 on: April 27, 2020, 10:57:29 PM »
Sorry, they got their fair share too:
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=32704.msg2237192#msg2237192
Only hope is to move away from NY NJ area. Just not sure why it took until now to realize...

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3112
  • Total likes: 3542
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1512 on: April 27, 2020, 11:00:02 PM »
Excellent. Let's export the garbage from this thread to as many other threads as possible. Way to mutilate DDF
Export-import confusion? Anyway, this is what this thread is unfortunately about, worth to hear a rational counter voice. Stop the "campaigns" on both sides.

Online yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 10880
  • Total likes: 3944
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 43
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1513 on: April 27, 2020, 11:17:44 PM »
Export-import confusion? Anyway, this is what this thread is unfortunately about, worth to hear a rational counter voice. Stop the "campaigns" on both sides.
What's rational about it?

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 3148
  • Total likes: 1302
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1514 on: April 27, 2020, 11:18:02 PM »
Rational? Sounds more like foaming at the mouth. I meant that that (and other) threads are being polluted by this shul stuff

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5128
  • Total likes: 6394
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1515 on: April 27, 2020, 11:22:18 PM »
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3112
  • Total likes: 3542
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1516 on: April 27, 2020, 11:23:45 PM »
What's rational about it?
This part:
Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda.
Hence:
Export-import confusion? Anyway, this is what this thread is unfortunately about, worth to hear a rational counter voice. Stop the "campaigns" on both sides.
Wasn't meant to endorse the whole.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 11:31:21 PM by EliJelly »

Online yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 10880
  • Total likes: 3944
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 43
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1517 on: April 27, 2020, 11:27:53 PM »
This part:Hence:Wasn't meant to endorse the whole.
That quote, if accurate, is very unspecific and is not relevant or supportive to the rest of his message railing against the letter of the 57 Rabbanim.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18342
  • Total likes: 14534
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1518 on: April 27, 2020, 11:37:21 PM »
Well if he believes this ridiculous and ignorant statistic

(The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) 
Then the point of his incoherent rant makes sense.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2571
  • Total likes: 543
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1519 on: April 28, 2020, 01:29:47 AM »
I'm really don't think that many people understand how the virus may teach in the levels of dying down due to social distancing.

A lot will just be like oh yeah it's all gone we a got it .

Watch out for NY infection #2

I figure shavuos will be the next bomb followed by another 4 weeks of hell