Corona virus and your shul

[yesitsme]

Depending on many points

pikuach nefesh?
the minyan keeps on getting closer together by the day

[chevron]

I just saw most of the shoppers in Target Watertown not giving a hoot about COVID19. Not a single Jewish looking person in sight besides me. I was there for work.

And?  It's human nature?

So how does that change anything? So because all the goyim also can't get their act together, we need to have a minyan?

Why is there a constant need to always be defensive and always point that "they do it too"

[Dan]

Why is there a constant need to always be defensive and always point that "they do it too"

It makes no sense.
We have a religion full of gederim and harchakos and yet we point to what others do as if that's justification. Jews should know better.

[Dan]

Justification??? I haven't davened with a minyan since Purim. My justification is my rabbis in consultation with medical professionals decided it was too risky.

Not referring to you, but the general attitude that if Target is OK, so is going to a minyan or levaya.

[yossig]

And?  It's human nature?

So how does that change anything? So because all the goyim also can't get their act together, we need to have a minyan?

Why is there a constant need to always be defensive and always point that "they do it too"

all he’s asking is to start bashing them as well.
We need a thread for groceries that allow in store shopping against 99% of rabonim.
Same for liquor stores!
Same for outside weddings that have more then chosen, kallah, and 1 Ed.
And so on...
GIVE ME A BREAK!

And it came to the point that today when DW male workmates wanted to davin Mincha and had only 9 ppl cuz one guy SITTING THERE WITH THEM declined to be מצטרף because he doesn’t davin with minyan now cuz of the virus.....

[yossig]

I'm not defensive at on this. You made a correlation between lack of social distancing being the same people who make minyanim. I'm pointing out that you see lack of social distancing all over the place and the 2 aren't connected. There are some who daven with a minyan but are otherwise careful and some who aren't at all careful but don't even know what a minyan is.

Its all the same ppl, driving the odyssey’s, taking food stamps, careless of other ppl, I think they also always park on the sidewalk ,there also the ones bashing the innocent hospitals and carelessly causing all the antisemitism... Add some salt and pepper to your taste...

Time for this thread to goooooo!!

[cholent]

Every thread I go into is the same discussion...

[ari3]

But it did just see a chasidish family from assuming NY, in Walgreens like no big deal. 12/13 year old daughter / sister was playing with younger ones, girl has a face mask on but pulled down to her chin and in middle of Walgreens she's.. blowing bubbles at the kids.. dude.. bubbles you just blew floating in the store?!

I'm not judging or actually give a hoot but just shows, people can attend minyanim and no idea what their kids are doing..

I think this post belongs in the "Antisemitism related to coronavirus" thread

[chevron]

Its all the same ppl, driving the odyssey’s, taking food stamps, careless of other ppl, I think they also always park on the sidewalk ,there also the ones bashing the innocent hospitals and carelessly causing all the antisemitism... Add some salt and pepper to your taste...

Time for this thread to goooooo!!

You said that not me

[chevron]

all he’s asking is to start bashing them as well.
We need a thread for groceries that allow in store shopping against 99% of rabonim.
Same for liquor stores!
Same for outside weddings that have more then chosen, kallah, and 1 Ed.
And so on...
GIVE ME A BREAK!

And it came to the point that today when DW male workmates wanted to davin Mincha and had only 9 ppl cuz one guy SITTING THERE WITH THEM declined to be מצטרף because he doesn’t davin with minyan now cuz of the virus.....

Exactly.

Because then what happens is that nobody listens and it becomes a circus.

We already dealt with other events, we opposed weddings etc

[chevron]

I don't understand why people are bashing me?

I made a thread about taking active precautions in shul's to slow / stop spread of covid19.

The issue was closing shul's. As far as outdoor / backyard minyanim. I'm sure it can be done right. But it's not always and we are machmir on pikuach nefesh.

Why does everyone have logical arguments and excuses ?

Us hashgacha agencies do not allow non mevushal wine. They cite a million things that can go wrong. I think it's BS and the halacha of Stam require the person to pour or shake the bottle.. actually touching your glass or moving the bottle wouldn't really constitute this.

Nevermind that yayn Stam isn't a big deal, many poskim hold that a non shomer shabbas Jew can touch the wine.

In macabi restaurant in Barcelona, I ordered a bottle of non mevushal wine, waitress put down the bottle, a glass, a cork screw and never touched the bottle or glass!!

Wow!

So this is a real non issue but because anything can go wrong...they are careful.

People are so machmir about a sfek sfeka..

Ever see a lubavitcher worry about the tinniest crumb on pesach getting wet?

People who will posul their esrog with the slightest Nick.. or who require 20 foot mechitzas?

It's just annoying, being machmir despite Torah being "v'chai bahem"

I admire the mesiras nefesh. A friend of mine won't talk to me, he says it's sinas chinam on my part to oppose people who are Moser nefesh.

I'm not opposed to it really, I think it's a bad idea and I think it can lead to disaster and mishna, talmud, rishonim and acharonim were always cautious least something lead to illness or CV death.

My annoyance is how people bend the halacha to suite their "chayei shaa" if they feel minyan is important, they don't care what poskim say, they will find a loophole.

So far no one in the destination guide forums has said "screw techum shabbas.. I need a minyan" I guess you can set up a sukkah off haulover beach with some water before Shabbat.

This issue comes from a deeper issue I have with Judaism becoming all pilpul. It's a known position I don't shy from.

It does you no good to accuse me of being against halacha.

Also shulchan aruch absolutely prohibits any talking during davening, chazaras hashatz, krias hatorah or kaddish.

Plus you can't talk anyways after Baruch sh'amar.

This doesn't stop MANY from talking.. how can you talk during kadish? Mishna brura says it's more severe to talk during kadish than during kedusha.

Plus I think it's disgusting how you treat the avel? Person's family member died, guy is trying to say kadish and various people are st different points during kadish because they can't hear the other person because people are talking

And I have witnessed the anguish and frustration on the faces of people saying kadish.

And parents who allow their kids to run in shul and the amount of garbage children AND adults throw on the floor.

Da lifney mi ata omed.

To me this is infinitely more important than tefilla b'tzibur.. to respect the house of God. To respect the shechina.

According to the Talmud (Megilah 29a), God will dwell in the holy spaces we create, for they are the Temple in miniature.

How are we keeping the shul holy ?

As per Rav avigdor Miller, when one talks in shul, he prevents other's tefilos from going up.

And like lashon Hara, when one talks in shul, the person they are talking to is being disrupted too.

[CountValentine]

I don't understand why people are bashing me?

I love your posts but not when they are a wall of text.

[aygart]

So far no one in the destination guide forums has said "screw techum shabbas.. I need a minyan" I guess you can set up a sukkah off haulover beach with some water before Shabbat.

For the record, there are many destinations where there is a tchum issue yet people walk to a minyan all the time. Occasionally I get asked to measure tchumin. There have been many times that i find that the place where "everyone stays and walks" means that they are walking past the tchum.

[aygart]

I don't understand why people are bashing me?

I made a thread about taking active precautions in shul's to slow / stop spread of covid19.

The issue was closing shul's. As far as outdoor / backyard minyanim. I'm sure it can be done right. But it's not always and we are machmir on pikuach nefesh.

Why does everyone have logical arguments and excuses ?

Us hashgacha agencies do not allow non mevushal wine. They cite a million things that can go wrong. I think it's BS and the halacha of Stam require the person to pour or shake the bottle.. actually touching your glass or moving the bottle wouldn't really constitute this.

Nevermind that yayn Stam isn't a big deal, many poskim hold that a non shomer shabbas Jew can touch the wine.

In macabi restaurant in Barcelona, I ordered a bottle of non mevushal wine, waitress put down the bottle, a glass, a cork screw and never touched the bottle or glass!!

Wow!

So this is a real non issue but because anything can go wrong...they are careful.

People are so machmir about a sfek sfeka..

Ever see a lubavitcher worry about the tinniest crumb on pesach getting wet?

People who will posul their esrog with the slightest Nick.. or who require 20 foot mechitzas?

It's just annoying, being machmir despite Torah being "v'chai bahem"

I admire the mesiras nefesh. A friend of mine won't talk to me, he says it's sinas chinam on my part to oppose people who are Moser nefesh.

I'm not opposed to it really, I think it's a bad idea and I think it can lead to disaster and mishna, talmud, rishonim and acharonim were always cautious least something lead to illness or CV death.

My annoyance is how people bend the halacha to suite their "chayei shaa" if they feel minyan is important, they don't care what poskim say, they will find a loophole.

So far no one in the destination guide forums has said "screw techum shabbas.. I need a minyan" I guess you can set up a sukkah off haulover beach with some water before Shabbat.

This issue comes from a deeper issue I have with Judaism becoming all pilpul. It's a known position I don't shy from.

It does you no good to accuse me of being against halacha.

Also shulchan aruch absolutely prohibits any talking during davening, chazaras hashatz, krias hatorah or kaddish.

Plus you can't talk anyways after Baruch sh'amar.

This doesn't stop MANY from talking.. how can you talk during kadish? Mishna brura says it's more severe to talk during kadish than during kedusha.

Plus I think it's disgusting how you treat the avel? Person's family member died, guy is trying to say kadish and various people are st different points during kadish because they can't hear the other person because people are talking

And I have witnessed the anguish and frustration on the faces of people saying kadish.

And parents who allow their kids to run in shul and the amount of garbage children AND adults throw on the floor.

Da lifney mi ata omed.

To me this is infinitely more important than tefilla b'tzibur.. to respect the house of God. To respect the shechina.

According to the Talmud (Megilah 29a), God will dwell in the holy spaces we create, for they are the Temple in miniature.

How are we keeping the shul holy ?

As per Rav avigdor Miller, when one talks in shul, he prevents other's tefilos from going up.

And like lashon Hara, when one talks in shul, the person they are talking to is being disrupted too.

As a whole this is very similar to the point that @ shkop was trying to make but without attacking any individuals. (can you believe that it can be done?) I have made similar points about people who are hearing barchu for the first time in years at some backyard minyanim. I see people at a backyard minyan spending half the davening smoking and shmoozing. It is ridiculous.

[12HRS]

Also shulchan aruch absolutely prohibits any talking during davening, chazaras hashatz, krias hatorah or kaddish.

Plus you can't talk anyways after Baruch sh'amar.

This doesn't stop MANY from talking.. how can you talk during kadish? Mishna brura says it's more severe to talk during kadish than during kedusha.

You always bring up this one issues as its clearly a major pet peeve of yours. But it helps to reframe it. R' Majeski in LA recently told how his Rov (I don't recall who) told him before he started as Rov of his kehilla a powerful point. He said before you go over to stop people from talking to each other in shul first you need to think how absolutely wonderful it is that 2 yidden want to talk with each other and can barely wait till a more appropriate time. It all comes down to how you choose to perceive it.

To be honest it pains me more that you are unable to grasp that everyone in life has their own personal yetzer haras that Hashem designed just for them. So what is simple for you (not talking in shul) might be a colossal challenge to someone else (as I am sure you have things that others would be bewildered at your actions)

[chevron]

You always bring up this one issues as its clearly a major pet peeve of yours. But it helps to reframe it. R' Majeski in LA recently told how his Rov (I don't recall who) told him before he started as Rov of his kehilla a powerful point. He said before you go over to stop people from talking to each other in shul first you need to think how absolutely wonderful it is that 2 yidden want to talk with each other and can barely wait till a more appropriate time. It all comes down to how you choose to perceive it.

To be honest it pains me more that you are unable to grasp that everyone in life has their own personal yetzer haras that Hashem designed just for them. So what is simple for you (not talking in shul) might be a colossal challenge to someone else (as I am sure you have things that others would be bewildered at your actions)

That's a very nice mashal but I don't understand the nimshal.

It's not about what the person yetzer Hara is, go talk outside. It destroys the davening, the shul decorum etc. It sets a bad example for others and there endless other issues.

I want to drink wine in middle of haftorah.. if I'm really bored I go find the Kiddush club.. if people need to talk, go outside.

What right does anyone have to disturb others? They kick you out of the library for talking too loud.

My father is very extreme, he will tell people to shut up and literally cannot pray in a shul where they talk.

My father has enourmes respect for mikdash me'aat. I remember as a kid of 3/4/5 as my father who has a master's degree, cut the lawn in front of baumgarten shul and I remember him painting the basement etc.

I don't agree that people should be kicked out for talking, but I really question why some of these people are in shul to begin with..

You ever see lubavitchers daven while they talk? One guy is talking, the other is davening with kavana while listening to the other guy talk, then he will reply to the other guy while the other guy prays.

I've seen a guy daven shmoneh esray while listening to his friend and when he finished, he responded.

I'm trying to find the berditchiver positive qualities here, I'm not a kotzker like my father (my great great grandfather once snuck into a wagon going to munkatch probably in 1880s, maybe we picked something up in munkarch)

Anyways, I just people really soul searched about what minyan and shul means.

Maybe God wants this to be a period of introspection?

[EliJelly]

@chevron, I got to love your style

[aygart]

I'm trying to find the berditchiver positive qualities here, I'm not a kotzker like my father (my great great grandfather once snuck into a wagon going to munkatch probably in 1880s, maybe we picked something up in munkarch)

Even people who don't appreciate davening enough to respect it properly are itching to come to shul to daven. ההולך ואינו עושה שכר הליכה בידו

[moko]

My father is very extreme, he will tell people to shut up and literally cannot pray in a shul where they talk.

ah... Reminds me of my youth...

I don't agree that people should be kicked out for talking, but I really question why some of these people are in shul to begin with..

where I daven, you'll first get a long stare for talking. If that doesn't work davening will be on pause (chazaras hashatz, hallel, krias hatorah, etc.) until you are quiet. Quite a few awkward moments...

[12HRS]

where I daven, you'll first get a long state for talking. If that doesn't work davening will be on pause (chazaras hashatz, hallel, krias hatorah, etc.) until you are quite. Quite a few awkward moments...

wait there is a way to approach this issue without yelling at people? I remember davening in a shul that had a no collectors during davening policy to help enhance the atmosphere. One time someone came in to collect and halfway through was thrown out by a member yelling and shouting at him for coming in during davening. I wonder which was more of a distraction to the kehilla and if the davening of that tzibbur accomplished anything that day.