Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 375573 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1740 on: May 11, 2020, 10:02:18 AM »
It seems some people have trouble with some basic logical facts. Let’s go through this together.

If you do not come into contact someone with a contagious virus at all, you will definitely not catch it. That’s why nobody got COVID, say, last year, because there was nobody to catch it from.

If you do come into long, sustained, close contact with someone with a contagious virus  there is a high likelihood of catching it, and your chances increase or decrease depending on many factors.

If everyone would stay locked down fully and completely the virus would be completely eradicated in short order. This is a no brainer. “Quarantine” always and forever works.

The questions only arise in implementation, when, how, how strict, what about people who must break the rules, what if it’s too late, what if it’ll take too long, how bad are the ramifications of the lockdown vs. the ramifications of the virus, what if it’s transmissible through other methods that are hard/impossible to prevent, etc. That’s where the debate is. Even in Sweden, the holy grail of no lockdown, anyone who wants to be cautious and not catch the virus is obviously trying to stay home as much as possible with as little contact with others as possible.

Again, these are all basic logical facts that any thinking person should be able to deduce on their own. In fact, the Gemara clearly states as much. Dever bair kaneis raglecha.

Your logic might be perfect in a place like EY, where a small minority has been exposed to the virus.

However, in many of the local communities estimates are that 70% or more have been exposed.

Why wouldn't it make sense to allow all those who were already exposed and a totally symptom free, to go back to normal life, including shul, mikvah, schools etc., while keeping those who weren't exposed or are at higher risk quarantined and protected? (I heard last night from a local Hatzolah member that the local Dr is of the opinion that this is the way to go at this point, but we're restricted by the state orders).
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Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1741 on: May 11, 2020, 10:07:59 AM »
Your logic might be perfect in a place like EY, where a small minority has been exposed to the virus.

However, in many of the local communities estimates are that 70% or more have been exposed.

Why wouldn't it make sense to allow all those who were already exposed and a totally symptom free, to go back to normal life, including shul, mikvah, schools etc., while keeping those who weren't exposed or are at higher risk quarantined and protected? (I heard last night from a local Hatzolah member that the local Dr is of the opinion that this is the way to go at this point, but we're restricted by the state orders).
I was not advocating for a specific position in any place under any specific circumstance, I was laying out the facts. Some people seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what quarantine does and are questioning it’s intrinsic functionality. The mechanics of a quarantine are very well understood and universally accepted. It’s also simple math.
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Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1742 on: May 11, 2020, 10:13:35 AM »
Your logic might be perfect in a place like EY, where a small minority has been exposed to the virus.

However, in many of the local communities estimates are that 70% or more have been exposed.

Why wouldn't it make sense to allow all those who were already exposed and a totally symptom free, to go back to normal life, including shul, mikvah, schools etc., while keeping those who weren't exposed or are at higher risk quarantined and protected? (I heard last night from a local Hatzolah member that the local Dr is of the opinion that this is the way to go at this point, but we're restricted by the state orders).
I can tell you a bunch of reasons why not, but that wasn’t my point anyway. I don’t necessarily think we should all remain completely locked up in our homes anymore, though there’s a possibility we should.

Regardless, it’s very important to understand that
Exposed ≠ Had
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1743 on: May 11, 2020, 10:16:55 AM »
Your logic might be perfect in a place like EY, where a small minority has been exposed to the virus.

However, in many of the local communities estimates are that 70% or more have been exposed.

Why wouldn't it make sense to allow all those who were already exposed and a totally symptom free, to go back to normal life, including shul, mikvah, schools etc., while keeping those who weren't exposed or are at higher risk quarantined and protected? (I heard last night from a local Hatzolah member that the local Dr is of the opinion that this is the way to go at this point, but we're restricted by the state orders).

Shouldn't we first do random antibody testing on each community so we have more qualitative information to work off, instead of just speculative/assumptions? 

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1744 on: May 11, 2020, 10:39:35 AM »
Shouldn't we first do random antibody testing on each community so we have more qualitative information to work off, instead of just speculative/assumptions? 
But then what everyone speculate about if we actually had hard facts?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1745 on: May 11, 2020, 10:41:30 AM »
But then what everyone speculate about if we actually had hard facts?
They could speculate how much money I have in my bank account.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1746 on: May 11, 2020, 10:47:49 AM »
But then what everyone speculate about if we actually had hard facts?
Even if every individual actually got the antibody test, there is not a full consensus that individuals who are positive should resume normal life.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1747 on: May 11, 2020, 10:51:00 AM »
Even if every individual actually got the antibody test, there is not a full consensus that individuals who are positive should resume normal life.
okaaay and?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1748 on: May 11, 2020, 10:53:47 AM »
Even if every individual actually got the antibody test, there is not a full consensus that individuals who are positive should resume normal life.
The issue I (and many others) have with this is if having antibodies isn't good enough, what are we waiting for? Will anyone ever be able to go out?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1749 on: May 11, 2020, 10:54:51 AM »
The issue I (and many others) have with this is if having antibodies isn't good enough, what are we waiting for?
Hopefully we'll know soon
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1750 on: May 11, 2020, 10:55:07 AM »
Even if every individual actually got the antibody test, there is not a full consensus that individuals who are positive should resume normal life.

Meanwhile the cases which led us to question this seem to have been errors.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yossig

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1751 on: May 11, 2020, 11:15:23 AM »
It seems some people have trouble with some basic logical facts. Let’s go through this together.

If you do not come into contact someone with a contagious virus at all, you will definitely not catch it. That’s why nobody got COVID, say, last year, because there was nobody to catch it from.

If you do come into long, sustained, close contact with someone with a contagious virus  there is a high likelihood of catching it, and your chances increase or decrease depending on many factors.

If everyone would stay locked down fully and completely the virus would be completely eradicated in short order. This is a no brainer. “Quarantine” always and forever works.

The questions only arise in implementation, when, how, how strict, what about people who must break the rules, what if it’s too late, what if it’ll take too long, how bad are the ramifications of the lockdown vs. the ramifications of the virus, what if it’s transmissible through other methods that are hard/impossible to prevent, etc. That’s where the debate is. Even in Sweden, the holy grail of no lockdown, anyone who wants to be cautious and not catch the virus is obviously trying to stay home as much as possible with as little contact with others as possible.

Again, these are all basic logical facts that any thinking person should be able to deduce on their own. In fact, the Gemara clearly states as much. Dever bair kaneis raglecha.
an amazing write up and great explanation on why it’s supposed to work.
Now back to my question
Does it currently work as intended or not?

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1752 on: May 11, 2020, 11:19:55 AM »
Meanwhile the cases which led us to question this seem to have been errors.
It was never proven. So yes, there were reasonable assumptions which would lead us to believe that those who were infected gained some sort of immunity. And yes, there were reports that implied re-infection, and those proved to be unfounded. But they haven't scientifically/medically proven immunity, or determined the longevity of the antibodies and therefore. I have to assume this is the reason NYS is not pursuing some sort of immunity passport type of system.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1753 on: May 11, 2020, 11:23:20 AM »
It was never proven. So yes, there were reasonable assumptions which would lead us to believe that those who were infected gained some sort of immunity. And yes, there were reports that implied re-infection, and those proved to be unfounded. But they haven't scientifically/medically proven immunity, or determined the longevity of the antibodies and therefore. I have to assume this is the reason NYS is not pursuing some sort of immunity passport type of system.
The biggest issue with immunity passports is the perverse incentive to catch the virus to be allowed out of lockdown. This is most likely the reason it isn't being done.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1754 on: May 11, 2020, 11:26:02 AM »
an amazing write up and great explanation on why it’s supposed to work.
Now back to my question
Does it currently work as intended or not?
Empirical evidence seems to suggest, based on this and previous lockdowns in history, that lockdowns implemented early, strategically, and strictly have a strong impact on the slowing or eliminating of the spread of COVID and other viruses.

See this thread for more info.
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Offline yossig

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1755 on: May 11, 2020, 11:33:11 AM »
Empirical evidence seems to suggest, based on this and previous lockdowns in history, that lockdowns implemented early, strategically, and strictly have a strong impact on the slowing or eliminating of the spread of COVID and other viruses.

See this thread for more info.
so if I understand correctly, you imply that, has this been done right it would’ve worked.

Agreed! As you can see below

so does quarantine work or not?
Maybe we should do it like Israel, lock everyone into hotels?!?

Now back to my original question
Does it currently work as intended or not?

If I cannot get a straight answer we’ll need Chiem here soon :)

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1756 on: May 11, 2020, 11:35:04 AM »
If I cannot get a straight answer we’ll need Chiem here soon :)
Please get his name right.  ;)
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1757 on: May 11, 2020, 11:38:47 AM »
It was never proven. So yes, there were reasonable assumptions which would lead us to believe that those who were infected gained some sort of immunity. And yes, there were reports that implied re-infection, and those proved to be unfounded. But they haven't scientifically/medically proven immunity, or determined the longevity of the antibodies and therefore. I have to assume this is the reason NYS is not pursuing some sort of immunity passport type of system.
Never proven but facts seem to lead that way.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yossig

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1758 on: May 11, 2020, 01:32:27 PM »
Please get his name right.  ;)
I was almost going to page you, glad you’re here. you see how quiet it gets?  ;D

Offline yitzf

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1759 on: May 12, 2020, 01:03:43 AM »
This has been going around. Assuming her facts are correct, this could be useful in considering shul reopening.

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?emc=edit_nn_20200511&segment_id=27239&nl=the-morning&user_id=88f9615aece4a03361ff9177b170bbff&regi_id=69563130&te=1&instance_id=18384&campaign_id=9

Great article, but we need to know how wearing a mask affect the equation.