Corona virus and your shul

[Yard sale]

Do the Rabbis give a wink when they give a non bona-fine psak - just trying to figure out how people know when the Rabbi means it’s a psak psak and when it’s an eh kind of
Psak.

Good question. Lakewood has one of the higher rates of following the psak of rabbanim in general so there must be some indication the olam has that there is leeway but I don’t know if it is coming from the Rabbonim themselves. There may be other factors already mentioned. BTW this is not true of all communities but  the Rabbonim in Lakewood and many other locales largely stopped mentioning sakana a long time ago. When the general populace is doing far more risky activities, an outdoor open air yard minyan is not going to be pegged as a sakana. It’s aiva that is/ was the issue.

There are many different mesorahs of how seriously to take aiva between the chassidish/ litvish/ MO communities and that accounts for some of the differences. That’s why you will find a prominent chassidish posek in Lakewood who has been holding well attended minyanim throughout....

[S209]

It’s absolutely selfish and disgusting behavior but unfortunately not surprising. (This is from a NYer with a condo on Collins avenue - and I still wouldn’t think of making the trip down for the foreseeable future.)

Can I borrow it? 

The other issue is that people who do respect and listen to Rabbanim are in many cases not buying that this is the Rabbanims deeply held psak. Take Lakewood where few will generally go against a unanimous psak of the 4 BMG poskim, yet I have yet to see a minyan that fully confirms to the written psak. Just about every one of them I am aware of occasionally has more than exactly ten attendees. Many are on an individuals porch etc. If you were to ask Rav Felder about going on someone’s porch (someone did a couple days ago)he will tell you not to. But people don’t feel this is a hard and fast psak that is binding. Maybe it has to do with the back a forth letters and retractions. Maybe the known politics of the pro and con camps. Maybe the fact that there are well known leaders who are not on board.

Far Rockaway and five Five Towns has a similar situation. People I know who would never disobey Rabbonim have been holding driveway/ porch minyanim throughout despite the name of their Rav appearing on the letter.

The bottom line is that many people don’t view this as a bona fide binding psak from a Rav, hence the scene that is actually occurring with the backyard minyanim. Is it possible that the dynamic was similar in Deerfield, rather than a head on thwarting of the Ravs authority?

This is terrible. It might be true that many are disregarding the psak but I don’t think it’s ok in the slightest that it’s so. In many cases, people are purely rationalizing doing something that’s probably wrong. I actually think many also feel it’s more a question of hashkafa not Halacha so they’re asking their manning, not necessarily so much the Rav of their Shul.

FWIW, our minyan consists of exactly 10 people from exactly 2 houses (and their basements)

[S209]

Good question. Lakewood has one of the higher rates of following the psak of rabbanim in general so there must be some indication the olam has that there is leeway but I don’t know if it is coming from the Rabbonim themselves. There may be other factors already mentioned. BTW this is not true of all communities but  the Rabbonim in Lakewood and many other locales largely stopped mentioning sakana a long time ago. When the general populace is doing far more risky activities, an outdoor open air yard minyan is not going to be pegged as a sakana. It’s aiva that is/ was the issue.

There are many different mesorahs of how seriously to take aiva between the chassidish/ litvish/ MO communities and that accounts for some of the differences. That’s why you will find a prominent chassidish posek in Lakewood who has been holding well attended minyanim throughout....

Why in the world would you say that? Of course the Rabbanim are mentioning sakana, as they well should. If you’re davening with a minyan you need to keep the danger in mind and be careful.

Say WHAT?

I haven't seen any letter urging anyone to make a minyan. Maybe if you would have worded it "urging those making yard minyanim to do so in an acceptably socially distant manner." There would be some veracity to it (though it might wake up @Yehuda57 for grammatical reasons). But while I have heard of Rabbonim giving private guidelines to porch/yard minyanim while their public stance was against ALL minyanim, I doubt anyone with any Halachic authority would URGE making such minyanim, if only due to the problem of לועג לרש.

I posted letters from R’ Elya Ber and R’ Yisroel Kalmanovitch, but they are in the distinct minority of people who have publicly encouraged people to daven, and R’ Yisroel was referring specifically to Eretz Yisroel which is a different story. I haven’t seen anything of the sort from anyone else. Also, R’ Elya Ber did write in the letter that you must follow proper safety protocols. Presumably high risk people should also not be attending, but I wouldn’t necessarily assume anything from it.

[reed]

I think the reason these rabbonm aren't urging you to make minyonim,  As they see it as no question You definitely have to

I spoke to three prominent from rabbonim in BP and Willi that were so upset about the anti-minyonim complete  ban movement...

Also I think there was a letter from Rabbi Wachtfogel

We see what went in BP and Willie (and what continues to go on) so this is not suprising. It’s sad and frightening but not shocking.

[reed]

Good question. Lakewood has one of the higher rates of following the psak of rabbanim in general so there must be some indication the olam has that there is leeway but I don’t know if it is coming from the Rabbonim themselves. There may be other factors already mentioned. BTW this is not true of all communities but  the Rabbonim in Lakewood and many other locales largely stopped mentioning sakana a long time ago. When the general populace is doing far more risky activities, an outdoor open air yard minyan is not going to be pegged as a sakana. It’s aiva that is/ was the issue.

There are many different mesorahs of how seriously to take aiva between the chassidish/ litvish/ MO communities and that accounts for some of the differences. That’s why you will find a prominent chassidish posek in Lakewood who has been holding well attended minyanim throughout....

There’s no more sakanah?! When did this happen?

Would love to know which medical experts the chasiddesh posek discussed this with.

[Luvisrael]

[Yard sale]

There’s no more sakanah?! When did this happen?

Would love to know which medical experts the chasiddesh posek discussed this with.

Should have been clearer. Holding an outdoor minyan in a yard/ porch that has more than 10 people etc is not currently viewed as a sakana

[reed]

Should have been clearer. Holding an outdoor minyan in a yard/ porch that has more than 10 people etc is not currently viewed as a sakana

Since when? Rabbi-Dr Glatt and other doctors still view it as a sakana. I haven’t seen other experts on the same level say it’s no longer a sakana.

[reed]

Once he made the flu comparison I was out. Why no name? So in summary you can daven outdoors and there will be new cases but let’s go indoors and there will be more cases - why - because you can also get into a car accident.

Fine reasoning.

[JMHO]

Who is the author of this?

[Yard sale]

Since when? Rabbi-Dr Glatt and other doctors still view it as a sakana. I haven’t seen other experts on the same level say it’s no longer a sakana.

I don’t know who they are in contact with. It is difficult to comprehend that 11 people in a yard is more of a sakana than everyone packing the Jersey Shore beaches which will be opening this Memorial Day.

[ExGingi]

I posted letters from R’ Elya Ber and R’ Yisroel Kalmanovitch, but they are in the distinct minority of people who have publicly encouraged people to daven, and R’ Yisroel was referring specifically to Eretz Yisroel which is a different story. I haven’t seen anything of the sort from anyone else. Also, R’ Elya Ber did write in the letter that you must follow proper safety protocols. Presumably high risk people should also not be attending, but I wouldn’t necessarily assume anything from it.

Link?

Discounting the one letter that you say is referring to EY, which we all agree is a totally different situation (though IMHO potentially more dangerous), that's a far cry from "hundreds of Rabbonim, likely many from their hometowns,  strongly urging people to make yard minyanim".

As I pointed out, a posek takes into account many considerations. I believe that considering the inequality of the situation, where some are able to hold minyanim based on a certain standard, while others are simply not lucky enough to have that option (והמסתעף מכל הנ"ל), was a major factor in guidance given by many Rabbonim.

[Lurker]

I don’t know who they are in contact with. It is difficult to comprehend that 11 people in a yard is more of a sakana than everyone packing the Jersey Shore beaches which will be opening this Memorial Day.

It's not more of a sakana, but what's your point? I thought we were done with the, "But they're doing x and that's so much worse?"

IMO, Memorial Day weekend is going to be the start of the second wave, because of the beaches, the BBQs, the stores, and people being stupid. I don't understand why that means we have to contribute to the wave. But we will, because 4 days later is Shavuos.

[yitzgar]

It's not more of a sakana, but what's your point? I thought we were done with the, "But they're doing x and that's so much worse?"

IMO, Memorial Day weekend is going to be the start of the second wave, because of the beaches, the BBQs, the stores, and people being stupid. I don't understand why that means we have to contribute to the wave. But we will, because 4 days later is Shavuos.

And the frum second wave could be first again, because of yesterday....

[Euclid]

Who is the author of this?

The original is attached here - with a signature:
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116348.msg2250469#msg2250469

[Kobe Bryant]

Not sure if this was posted already.

[Sam Finkelstein]

Not sure if this was posted already.

It sure was.

[yelped]

Link?

Discounting the one letter that you say is referring to EY, which we all agree is a totally different situation (though IMHO potentially more dangerous), that's a far cry from "hundreds of Rabbonim, likely many from their hometowns,  strongly urging people to make yard minyanim".

As I pointed out, a posek takes into account many considerations. I believe that considering the inequality of the situation, where some are able to hold minyanim based on a certain standard, while others are simply not lucky enough to have that option (והמסתעף מכל הנ"ל), was a major factor in guidance given by many Rabbonim.

Don't forget that Roshei Yeshivos are not necessarily Poskim. But what is the use of rehashing this whole thing again? I feel like I just hit a brick wall in some people's brains.

[EliJelly]

Not sure if this was posted already.

Sure. This was the spark to all of this.

[EliJelly]

Link?

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116348.msg2248167#msg2248167