Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 368472 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1840 on: May 13, 2020, 12:56:04 PM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2863
  • Total likes: 3465
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1841 on: May 13, 2020, 01:08:02 PM »
Thank you.

Very recent letter, and probably based on local conditions.
Quote
וברצוני בזה לפנות לכם תלמידי די בכל אתר ואתר
But recent indeed, the whole shul reopening on mass scale is very recent.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 01:11:59 PM by EliJelly »

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1842 on: May 13, 2020, 01:37:28 PM »

Who is the Rav who wrote this? It’s cut off.

I’m not going to debate the substance of the letter, as it’s somewhat reasonable and possibly medically warranted, but the fact that he threw in specifically both the flu and car accidents makes me think he’s still not quite understanding..
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1843 on: May 13, 2020, 01:42:08 PM »
Link?

Discounting the one letter that you say is referring to EY, which we all agree is a totally different situation (though IMHO potentially more dangerous), that's a far cry from "hundreds of Rabbonim, likely many from their hometowns,  strongly urging people to make yard minyanim".

As I pointed out, a posek takes into account many considerations. I believe that considering the inequality of the situation, where some are able to hold minyanim based on a certain standard, while others are simply not lucky enough to have that option (והמסתעף מכל הנ"ל), was a major factor in guidance given by many Rabbonim.


Agreed, I was just pointing out there are some who are actually publicly urging it, not just discounting the danger of doing so. I’m also not saying I necessarily agree. It’s definitely a very small minority who are saying these things publicly, though lots of people (see @sammyp) say that privately Rabbanim are saying the same. I heard there’s a text from R’ Malkiel going around that BMG should open quietly for some chaburos and I have no trouble believing that’s true.

I’m just reporting the news without bias ;)
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 900
  • Total likes: 471
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1844 on: May 13, 2020, 01:54:49 PM »
It's not more of a sakana, but what's your point? I thought we were done with the, "But they're doing x and that's so much worse?"

IMO, Memorial Day weekend is going to be the start of the second wave, because of the beaches, the BBQs, the stores, and people being stupid. I don't understand why that means we have to contribute to the wave. But we will, because 4 days later is Shavuos.

It’s not that “they”re doing x”, it’s “we are already doing x”. If the same people who are not going to make the yard minyan are going to be doing other permitted activities then why ban the yard minyan (unless you are worried about aiva)? Many of these same people who you are warning not to make a minyan are going to be hitting the FL boardwalk and beaches as soon as they open. Go into any Lakewood store especially Thursday and Friday and you will see hordes of people, many shopping for non-essentials, often without gloves. The same holds true for the non-Jewish stores. Six feet of distancing does not happen. Same holds true for other permitted activities. There is so much more exposure at this point. Why limit minyan specifically? If you want to put out a letter that we are better and have higher standards of chashash sakana so no one may visit any of the permitted venues (and anyone who does with forfeit his shul membership) we can debate whether that is reasonable but that at least brings some consistency.

Offline Euclid

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 4911
  • Total likes: 6141
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1845 on: May 13, 2020, 01:55:15 PM »
Who is the Rav who wrote this? It’s cut off.

I’m not going to debate the substance of the letter, as it’s somewhat reasonable and possibly medically warranted, but the fact that he threw in specifically both the flu and car accidents makes me think he’s still not quite understanding..

The original is attached here - with a signature:
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116348.msg2250469#msg2250469


ETA: I don't think it's medically warranted to have indoor minyanim - see https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1846 on: May 13, 2020, 01:56:28 PM »
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1847 on: May 13, 2020, 02:00:44 PM »
It’s not that “they”re doing x”, it’s “we are already doing x”. If the same people who are not going to make the yard minyan are going to be doing other permitted activities then why ban the yard minyan (unless you are worried about aiva)? Many of these same people who you are warning not to make a minyan are going to be hitting the FL boardwalk and beaches as soon as they open. Go into any Lakewood store especially Thursday and Friday and you will see hordes of people, many shopping for non-essentials, often without gloves. The same holds true for the non-Jewish stores. Six feet of distancing does not happen. Same holds true for other permitted activities. There is so much more exposure at this point. Why limit minyan specifically? If you want to put out a letter that we are better and have higher standards of chashash sakana so no one may visit any of the permitted venues (and anyone who does with forfeit his shul membership) we can debate whether that is reasonable but that at least brings some consistency.
I’m just addressing your argument, not the letter: There is a strong difference between people doing the wrong thing individually and sanctioning and mandating it on a communal level, in the name of Yiddishkeit.

“People in the community are smoking anyway, so the Shul is going to purchase extra menthol cigarettes and distribute them free of charge in large quantities!”

People attending Shul 3 times a day indoors will definitely add to the assumed sakana in this case. That argument doesn’t hold water.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 900
  • Total likes: 471
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1848 on: May 13, 2020, 02:06:01 PM »
I’m just addressing your argument, not the letter: There is a strong difference between people doing the wrong thing individually and sanctioning and mandating it on a communal level, in the name of Yiddishkeit.

“People in the community are smoking anyway, so the Shul is going to purchase extra menthol cigarettes and distribute them free of charge in large quantities!”

People attending Shul 3 times a day indoors will definitely add to the assumed sakana in this case. That argument doesn’t hold water.

Was not referring to indoors. I don’t know that we are ready for that yet

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1849 on: May 13, 2020, 02:13:35 PM »
Was not referring to indoors. I don’t know that we are ready for that yet
You can make the same argument for outdoor Shul-encouraged minyanim, without resorting to aiva or “it’ll lead to other things” which are both valid taynos.

Once again, this is coming from someone who attends an outdoor minyan daily so I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m saying the argument isn’t valid. Because you’re doing “x” does not mean we should encourage and sanction “y”, it means we should be taking a harsher stance against “x” if that truly is a problem. It’s not logical in any way, though I keep hearing this repeated.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 900
  • Total likes: 471
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1850 on: May 13, 2020, 02:18:37 PM »
You can make the same argument for outdoor Shul-encouraged minyanim, without resorting to aiva or “it’ll lead to other things” which are both valid taynos.

Once again, this is coming from someone who attends an outdoor minyan daily so I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m saying the argument isn’t valid. Because you’re doing “x” does not mean we should encourage and sanction “y”, it means we should be taking a harsher stance against “x” if that truly is a problem. It’s not logical in any way, though I keep hearing this repeated.
That assuming we have the ability to take a harsher stance against x. I don’t think it is. Tell the Jews that they alone should not use the boardwalk and see how that goes over.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1851 on: May 13, 2020, 02:22:01 PM »
That assuming we have the ability to take a harsher stance against x. I don’t think it is. Tell the Jews that they alone should not use the boardwalk and see how that goes over.
Just like we tell them to keep Shabbos, only Kosher, and eat Matzah? They seem to be ok doing extra things
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1852 on: May 13, 2020, 02:22:20 PM »
I’m just reporting the news without bias ;)

Well, I'm sure you can get hired by Fox News. Don't you think so @CountValentine?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1853 on: May 13, 2020, 02:36:51 PM »
@Yard sale I'm not understanding. Your issue is with shuls not allowing minyanim in FL, or with the shul's letter?
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 900
  • Total likes: 471
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1854 on: May 13, 2020, 02:50:05 PM »
@Yard sale I'm not understanding. Your issue is with shuls not allowing minyanim in FL, or with the shul's letter?
I did think the shuls letter was pretty harsh. Some stated that undermining one’s Ravs authority deserves a severe response. One point that was brought up is that people making minyanim likely don’t view it as subordination as evidenced by people in Lakewood etc. who nearly always follow the poskim yet are making minyanim.

There was a discussion as to why people think it’s ok, and as to whether the issue is still one of sakana as someone attributed to Dr. Glatt, or just possible aiva (which various streams of orthodoxy relate to differently), seeing that people are attending equally risky or riskier venues than yard minyanim.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1855 on: May 13, 2020, 03:08:49 PM »
I did think the shuls letter was pretty harsh. Some stated that undermining one’s Ravs authority deserves a severe response. One point that was brought up is that people making minyanim likely don’t view it as subordination as evidenced by people in Lakewood etc. who nearly always follow the poskim yet are making minyanim.

There was a discussion as to why people think it’s ok, and as to whether the issue is still one of sakana as someone attributed to Dr. Glatt, or just possible aiva (which various streams of orthodoxy relate to differently), seeing that people are attending equally risky or riskier venues than yard minyanim.

The first issue is that it's a big mistake to equate Lakewood to Deerfield Beach. For starters, you're comparing one shul and one voice to a town with many shuls and many voices. It's not remotely the same in any case, and most definitely not here. Second, the facts on the ground are worlds apart. The reason there's less sakana in Lakewood and NY is because of the prevalence of anti-bodies in many mispallelim. In fact, many directives for participating in minyanim list conditions of having tested positive for anti-bodies and being under 65. That would disqualify virtually every member of that shul. Third, like I mentioned before, this YI isn't operating in a vacuum. This is the standard across almost every frum shul in South FL. They are united in this, although there are a few variances with regards to street minyanim depending on your individual circumstances, but only with specific instruction from the local rav.

Which brings us to the letter. There is absolutely no way that making a minyan can be viewed as not being insubordination and undermining the rav's psak. Just because it's done in Lakewood  doesn't make it right, and as stated before, there's only one shul and one voice here. To go against a rav in such a public way... Judaism has some pretty harsh things to say on the matter.

I can handle debate. I enjoy it. The back and forth over the issues above can be done in healthy ways, bringing clarity and alternate points of view. However, the smears used against the FL Jewish community as a whole yesterday rivaled DeBlasio's comments, and in ways were so much worse. That goes for the cr@pping on YI's hashkafos, as well. IMO, apologies are in order.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1856 on: May 13, 2020, 03:11:41 PM »
The first issue is that it's a big mistake to equate Lakewood to Deerfield Beach. For starters, you're comparing one shul and one voice to a town with many shuls and many voices. It's not remotely the same in any case, and most definitely not here. Second, the facts on the ground are worlds apart. The reason there's less sakana in Lakewood and NY is because of the prevalence of anti-bodies in many mispallelim. In fact, many directives for participating in minyanim list conditions of having tested positive for anti-bodies and being under 65. That would disqualify virtually every member of that shul. Third, like I mentioned before, this YI isn't operating in a vacuum. This is the standard across almost every frum shul in South FL. They are united in this, although there are a few variances with regards to street minyanim depending on your individual circumstances, but only with specific instruction from the local rav.

Which brings us to the letter. There is absolutely no way that making a minyan can be viewed as not being insubordination and undermining the rav's psak. Just because it's done in Lakewood  doesn't make it right, and as stated before, there's only one shul and one voice here. To go against a rav in such a public way... Judaism has some pretty harsh things to say on the matter.

I can handle debate. I enjoy it. The back and forth over the issues above can be done in healthy ways, bringing clarity and alternate points of view. However, the smears used against the FL Jewish community as a whole yesterday rivaled DeBlasio's comments, and in ways were so much worse. That goes for the cr@pping on YI's hashkafos, as well. IMO, apologies are in order.
Wishful thinking with zero fact based backing. No study shows greater than 20% in the general population.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67598
  • Total likes: 16909
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1857 on: May 13, 2020, 03:13:12 PM »
I did think the shuls letter was pretty harsh. Some stated that undermining one’s Ravs authority deserves a severe response. One point that was brought up is that people making minyanim likely don’t view it as subordination as evidenced by people in Lakewood etc. who nearly always follow the poskim yet are making minyanim.

There was a discussion as to why people think it’s ok, and as to whether the issue is still one of sakana as someone attributed to Dr. Glatt, or just possible aiva (which various streams of orthodoxy relate to differently), seeing that people are attending equally risky or riskier venues than yard minyanim.
In addition to the highly vulnerable community, I was told the Rav was also very sick with COVID-19
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5054
  • Total likes: 6390
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1858 on: May 13, 2020, 03:17:21 PM »
Wishful thinking with zero fact based backing. No study shows greater than 20% in the general population.

A matter that's been debated extensively, and I don't necessarily disagree, but it's still being used as a basis for allowing minyanim in the tri-state area. And it most definitely does not apply to South FL.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 900
  • Total likes: 471
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1859 on: May 13, 2020, 03:24:00 PM »
In addition to the highly vulnerable community, I was told the Rav was also very sick with COVID-19
I hear that. I just got back from taking a relative for a medical visit (semi emergency) to a frum provider who just recently lost their young-ish spouse to Covid. Heartbreaking.  You can bet I had my mask on fully and tried  to be extra sensitive while there. Maybe it was poor judgment, given the situation, to hold the yard minyan if it caused agmas nefesh to a criticaly ill Rav. Still seems like the letter was kind of overboard.