Corona virus and your shul

[EliJelly]

I can handle debate. I enjoy it. The back and forth over the issues above can be done in healthy ways, bringing clarity and alternate points of view. However, the smears used against the FL Jewish community as a whole yesterday rivaled DeBlasio's comments, and in ways were so much worse. That goes for the cr@pping on YI's hashkafos, as well. IMO, apologies are in order.

I was looking for the paint, was looking for the brush, couldn't find it. Healthy discussion is great, thankfully it was for the most part.

[ari3]

Since when? Rabbi-Dr Glatt and other doctors still view it as a sakana. I haven’t seen other experts on the same level say it’s no longer a sakana.

Since thousands have started davening in outdoor minyonim and there has not been an uptick in cases. Because there are a few doctors vocally voicing an opinion doesn't mean that is fact

Link?

Discounting the one letter that you say is referring to EY, which we all agree is a totally different situation (though IMHO potentially more dangerous), that's a far cry from "hundreds of Rabbonim, likely many from their hometowns,  strongly urging people to make yard minyanim".

In Lakewood BP and other places there are hundreds of rabbonim encouraging their mispallelim to daven with a minyan in safe circumstances. They don't see a need to write fiery letters about it but they are advising their congregants to do so

[Yard sale]

The first issue is that it's a big mistake to equate Lakewood to Deerfield Beach. For starters, you're comparing one shul and one voice to a town with many shuls and many voices. It's not remotely the same in any case, and most definitely not here. Second, the facts on the ground are worlds apart. The reason there's less sakana in Lakewood and NY is because of the prevalence of anti-bodies in many mispallelim. In fact, many directives for participating in minyanim list conditions of having tested positive for anti-bodies and being under 65. That would disqualify virtually every member of that shul. Third, like I mentioned before, this YI isn't operating in a vacuum. This is the standard across almost every frum shul in South FL. They are united in this, although there are a few variances with regards to street minyanim depending on your individual circumstances, but only with specific instruction from the local rav.

Which brings us to the letter. There is absolutely no way that making a minyan can be viewed as not being insubordination and undermining the rav's psak. Just because it's done in Lakewood  doesn't make it right, and as stated before, there's only one shul and one voice here. To go against a rav in such a public way... Judaism has some pretty harsh things to say on the matter.

I can handle debate. I enjoy it. The back and forth over the issues above can be done in healthy ways, bringing clarity and alternate points of view. However, the smears used against the FL Jewish community as a whole yesterday rivaled DeBlasio's comments, and in ways were so much worse. That goes for the cr@pping on YI's hashkafos, as well. IMO, apologies are in order.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses whether you are die hard Bnei Brak or yom haatzmaut celebrating YI. I think it’s fair to say that if you are tolerant of other religious shortcomings (and there can be valid reasons for doing so) it is not consistent to come down harshly with a religious justification. You can disagree but in no way is anyone bashing YI hashkafos.

During the last few months I’ve seen many attitudes about the pandemic coming from the ultra yeshivish point of view that are far more unsettling to me than than many MO hashkafos. I get that there’s context but the letter sits wrong with me. That is the only issue. If there is anything that came across as smearing the Florida Jewish community then it was wrong it should not have been stated in that way. Point it out and if it was smearing the Florida community I would definitely walk it back.

[EliJelly]

I’m just reporting the news without bias

You're a cute one! Where will you spare all the energy when all of this is over??

[aygart]

BTW, for the record I am the proud 1/3 owner of an apartment in Century Village Deerfield which I inherited but I have never actually seen it.

[EliJelly]

BTW, for the record I am the proud 1/3 owner of an apartment in Century Village Deerfield which I inherited but I have never actually seen it.

1/3 owner = I have never actually seen it

[chevron]

BTW, for the record I am the proud 1/3 owner of an apartment in Century Village Deerfield which I inherited but I have never actually seen it.

You're not missing much

[chevron]

It’s not that “they”re doing x”, it’s “we are already doing x”. If the same people who are not going to make the yard minyan are going to be doing other permitted activities then why ban the yard minyan (unless you are worried about aiva)? Many of these same people who you are warning not to make a minyan are going to be hitting the FL boardwalk and beaches as soon as they open. Go into any Lakewood store especially Thursday and Friday and you will see hordes of people, many shopping for non-essentials, often without gloves. The same holds true for the non-Jewish stores. Six feet of distancing does not happen. Same holds true for other permitted activities. There is so much more exposure at this point. Why limit minyan specifically? If you want to put out a letter that we are better and have higher standards of chashash sakana so no one may visit any of the permitted venues (and anyone who does with forfeit his shul membership) we can debate whether that is reasonable but that at least brings some consistency.

So, if people are anyways going to sit immodestly by the pool on Shabbat, we should encourage them instead to drive to shul.

That is the Crux of your logic. You're mixing shul and state.

In general the guidance was to social distance and avoid stores and such.

Just highlighting the stupidity of it all doesn't warrant opening shuls.

That's like closing the shul in a blizzard and arguing "but people are sledding"

It's the Rav's responsibility to look after the shul and those who pray there, general health guidelines were sent out in my community.

We also distributed masks that everyone should have for shopping.

[Yard sale]

The first issue is that it's a big mistake to equate Lakewood to Deerfield Beach. For starters, you're comparing one shul and one voice to a town with many shuls and many voices. It's not remotely the same in any case, and most definitely not here. Second, the facts on the ground are worlds apart. The reason there's less sakana in Lakewood and NY is because of the prevalence of anti-bodies in many mispallelim. In fact, many directives for participating in minyanim list conditions of having tested positive for anti-bodies and being under 65. That would disqualify virtually every member of that shul. Third, like I mentioned before, this YI isn't operating in a vacuum. This is the standard across almost every frum shul in South FL. They are united in this, although there are a few variances with regards to street minyanim depending on your individual circumstances, but only with specific instruction from the local rav.

Which brings us to the letter. There is absolutely no way that making a minyan can be viewed as not being insubordination and undermining the rav's psak. Just because it's done in Lakewood  doesn't make it right, and as stated before, there's only one shul and one voice here. To go against a rav in such a public way... Judaism has some pretty harsh things to say on the matter.

I can handle debate. I enjoy it. The back and forth over the issues above can be done in healthy ways, bringing clarity and alternate points of view. However, the smears used against the FL Jewish community as a whole yesterday rivaled DeBlasio's comments, and in ways were so much worse. That goes for the cr@pping on YI's hashkafos, as well. IMO, apologies are in order.

You seem to be very familiar with DB. Is there any truth to the way the story was described in posts on VIN, or is it a misrepresentation?

“I CALLED DEER FIELD TO GET THE FACTS & CONTEXT
1. senior living complex for the past 3 months each day at some point they sit around the deck/ grass spread out & shmooze
2. someone had yartzeit so he said everybody stay at your place , & i’ll be the chazan we are all sitting here anyway
3 not on shul property , no hats & jackets
4 so the shul board told one of the minyan dont give the daf anymore”



“Happens to be that the Swimming pool at their club house is open for up to 30 people at a time. But members of the shul cannot make an outside minyan in front of their building!”

[Lurker]

You seem to be very familiar with DB. Is there any truth to the way the story was described in posts on VIN, or is it a misrepresentation?

I could probably make some calls and get a version of the story, but it would be the same one-sided (or even 2-sided) hearsay, and you'd be faced with either believing some random poster on VIN or some random poster on DDF. I also don't really see the point, because the fact remains the same: there was a clear violation of the local rabbi's psak, and it was either done publicly or became public knowledge, so the shul reacted to preserve the kavod of their rabbi, their community, and what they see as Kavod HaTorah.

“I CALLED DEER FIELD TO GET THE FACTS & CONTEXT
1. senior living complex for the past 3 months each day at some point they sit around the deck/ grass spread out & shmooze
2. someone had yartzeit so he said everybody stay at your place , & i’ll be the chazan we are all sitting here anyway
3 not on shul property , no hats & jackets
4 so the shul board told one of the minyan dont give the daf anymore”

As to the VIN version of things, this is pure speculation on my part, but it seems like absolute BS.
1. No one has been locked down for 3 months. It's been barely 2. I know, stupid detail, but it goes towards the accuracy of the account.
2. How do you picture this going down? A bunch of guys are hanging around like they always do, when suddenly Jerry has a thought. "Hey Barry, Irv! You know, I actually have yartzeit today! Everyone stay where they are and I'll chap a quick kaddish." ....There's no way this wasn't premeditated. Furthermore, if we can find the time to argue the pros and cons of minyanim here on DDF, you can bet your life this argument has been had ad nauseam on every porch of Century Village.
3. No hats and jackets? Is this a negotiation? Makes it less official? They bargained with G-d? Or is this to show it was spontaneous? See above...
4. Personal opinion, but it seems reasonable. If you can't respect the rav, please don't represent our shul. We'll find someone else to give our shiurim.

“Happens to be that the Swimming pool at their club house is open for up to 30 people at a time. But members of the shul cannot make an outside minyan in front of their building!”

This is just more of the same old attempts at justification. It doesn't change the fact that Torah doesn't look kindly on those who disrespect the psak of a rav in public. If you have an issue with the psak, there are prescribed avenues to deal with them in a halachic fashion.

[aygart]

3  no hats & jackets

Isn't this a Young Israel? Do they all wear hats and jackets for tfilos in the shul?

[Shmobaum]

Davened in my shul this morning first time since purim!!! Thank you HaShem for inviting me again! Only ten ppl...

[Luvisrael]

Davened in my shul this morning first time since purim!!! Thank you HaShem for inviting me again! Only ten ppl...

wow Halevai that excitement stays with u...

[S209]

Davened in my shul this morning first time since purim!!! Thank you HaShem for inviting me again! Only ten ppl...

Curious what measures they took. How far apart were people, how did they ensure it? Which 10 people got to daven, does everyone do it at different times? We’re windows open? Was davening shortened? How did laining work? Or was it regular, just limited in attendees?

[Theg]

I could probably make some calls and get a version of the story, but it would be the same one-sided (or even 2-sided) hearsay, and you'd be faced with either believing some random poster on VIN or some random poster on DDF. I also don't really see the point, because the fact remains the same: there was a clear violation of the local rabbi's psak, and it was either done publicly or became public knowledge, so the shul reacted to preserve the kavod of their rabbi, their community, and what they see as Kavod HaTorah.

As to the VIN version of things, this is pure speculation on my part, but it seems like absolute BS.
1. No one has been locked down for 3 months. It's been barely 2. I know, stupid detail, but it goes towards the accuracy of the account.
2. How do you picture this going down? A bunch of guys are hanging around like they always do, when suddenly Jerry has a thought. "Hey Barry, Irv! You know, I actually have yartzeit today! Everyone stay where they are and I'll chap a quick kaddish." ....There's no way this wasn't premeditated. Furthermore, if we can find the time to argue the pros and cons of minyanim here on DDF, you can bet your life this argument has been had ad nauseam on every porch of Century Village.
3. No hats and jackets? Is this a negotiation? Makes it less official? They bargained with G-d? Or is this to show it was spontaneous? See above...
4. Personal opinion, but it seems reasonable. If you can't respect the rav, please don't represent our shul. We'll find someone else to give our shiurim.

This is just more of the same old attempts at justification. It doesn't change the fact that Torah doesn't look kindly on those who disrespect the psak of a rav in public. If you have an issue with the psak, there are prescribed avenues to deal with them in a halachic fashion.

Let me fill you in on first hand information that I heard from someone that was part of thy minyan
There was a total of exactly 10 ppl there and everyone was on their own porch.
It was mostly heimish guys and young Isreal feels very threatened by them so they decided that this is the perfect opportunity to get rid of them so they put out this letter. It’s all about politics and has nothing to do with the fact of whether porch minyan should be allowed or not.

[Kobe Bryant]

Curious what measures they took. How far apart were people, how did they ensure it? Which 10 people got to daven, does everyone do it at different times? We’re windows open? Was davening shortened? How did laining work? Or was it regular, just limited in attendees?

I can understand the fear and concerns we all had a couple of months ago regarding Minyanim and the like, I am curious as to why there is still such scrutiny now, so much more so than every other aspect of life?

[S209]

I can understand the fear and concerns we all had a couple of months ago regarding Minyanim and the like, I am curious as to why there is still such scrutiny now, so much more so than every other aspect of life?

Because it’s life threatening to masses of people, which takes precedence to any other area of life?

Why would it be any different than a couple of months ago? Because deaths slowed down, which can easily be attributed to social distancing?

[Euclid]

I can understand the fear and concerns we all had a couple of months ago regarding Minyanim and the like, I am curious as to why there is still such scrutiny now, so much more so than every other aspect of life?

Indoor gatherings with singing and loud talking:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm

TL;DR - 87% of a church choir came down with symptoms after a practice with 1 member who was positive. This was with taking precautions.

[CountValentine]

Common sense is not dead.

U.S. District Judge Robert Gettlemen rejected their request for an injunction against Pritzker, stating “the Order has nothing to do with suppressing religion and everything to do with reducing infections and saving lives” during the COVID-19 pandemic.

“Plaintiffs’ request for an injunction, and their blatant refusal to follow the mandates of the Order are both ill-founded and selfish. An injunction would risk the lives of plaintiffs’ congregants, as well as the lives of their family members, friends, co-workers and other members of their communities with whom they come in contact,” Gettlemen wrote in a 12-page ruling on Wednesday. “Their interest in communal services cannot and does not outweigh the health and safety of the public.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/another-federal-judge-sides-with-gov-jb-pritzker-rejects-two-churches-challenge-to-stay-at-home-order/ar-BB145bjb?ocid=hplocalnews

[aygart]

Let me fill you in on first hand information that I heard from someone that was part of thy minyan
There was a total of exactly 10 ppl there and everyone was on their own porch.
It was mostly heimish guys and young Isreal feels very threatened by them so they decided that this is the perfect opportunity to get rid of them so they put out this letter. It’s all about politics and has nothing to do with the fact of whether porch minyan should be allowed or not.

I have no information other than what was posted here, but if they were prominent members such as a chazan and someone giving a shiur and they flaunted the Rabbi like this then how many people attended and location are irrelevant.