Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 368774 times)

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1880 on: May 14, 2020, 12:28:05 PM »
Curious what measures they took. How far apart were people, how did they ensure it? Which 10 people got to daven, does everyone do it at different times? We’re windows open? Was davening shortened? How did laining work? Or was it regular, just limited in attendees?

Because it’s life threatening to masses of people, which takes precedence to any other area of life?

i understand you are concerned, my question is why are we scrutinizing minaynim more than say grocery shops, hardware stores, office space, airplanes, or a congress testimony?   
Why would it be any different than a couple of months ago? Because deaths slowed down, which can easily be attributed to social distancing?

Why would we lift any restrictions at all? maybe because some people have had Covid19 and tested for antibodies and are resuming life to some degree and that includes davaning with a minyan with SD.

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1881 on: May 14, 2020, 12:32:39 PM »
Common sense is not dead.

U.S. District Judge Robert Gettlemen rejected their request for an injunction against Pritzker, stating “the Order has nothing to do with suppressing religion and everything to do with reducing infections and saving lives” during the COVID-19 pandemic.

“Plaintiffs’ request for an injunction, and their blatant refusal to follow the mandates of the Order are both ill-founded and selfish. An injunction would risk the lives of plaintiffs’ congregants, as well as the lives of their family members, friends, co-workers and other members of their communities with whom they come in contact,” Gettlemen wrote in a 12-page ruling on Wednesday. “Their interest in communal services cannot and does not outweigh the health and safety of the public.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/another-federal-judge-sides-with-gov-jb-pritzker-rejects-two-churches-challenge-to-stay-at-home-order/ar-BB145bjb?ocid=hplocalnews
Elim Romanian Pentecostal Church in Albany Park and Logos Baptist Ministries in Niles had filed a joint lawsuit seeking a temporary restraining order allowing them to hold normal services, arguing Pritzker’s order limiting religious gatherings to no more than 10 people violates their rights to religion and free speech.

Offline reed

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1882 on: May 14, 2020, 12:49:06 PM »
i understand you are concerned, my question is why are we scrutinizing minaynim more than say grocery shops, hardware stores, office space, airplanes, or a congress testimony?   
Why would we lift any restrictions at all? maybe because some people have had Covid19 and tested for antibodies and are resuming life to some degree and that includes davaning with a minyan with SD.

How long are we going to make the what about x argument? Don’t go to groceries or hardware stores either. Rabbis don’t control stores. They can pasken about minyanim. People need food they go to grocery. Rabbi-Dr Glatt has said numerous times that visits to the groceries should be only when needed, very quick and only one person per family. It’s is preferable to get things delivered.

Haven’t the studies showed that only 20% of the population may have anti-bodies? So screw the other 80%? If you think those 80% will be smart enough to stay away from minyanim and Shuls by themselves - after reading this forum and the other “frum” site I am fairly confident in saying they are not.

So what happens? We have more sickness and more deaths. Why? Because we never learn our lesson.

My fatherinlaws shul in Flatbush was open a full two weeks longer than my shul in five towns. So many people got sick and there were deaths from that shul. I told him what is wrong with your shul just shut it. The reply was “the Rav believes in the koach of teffilah betizibur”. I heard they are making plans to reopen their shul very soon.

So this is why we can’t have minyanim yet. People have a very short-term memory and in general seem to be extremely foolish about this. As sad as it is to say, we cannot leave people to their own devices.


Offline chevron

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1883 on: May 14, 2020, 12:54:38 PM »
How long are we going to make the what about x argument? Don’t go to groceries or hardware stores either. Rabbis don’t control stores. They can pasken about minyanim. People need food they go to grocery. Rabbi-Dr Glatt has said numerous times that visits to the groceries should be only when needed, very quick and only one person per family. It’s is preferable to get things delivered.

Haven’t the studies showed that only 20% of the population may have anti-bodies? So screw the other 80%? If you think those 80% will be smart enough to stay away from minyanim and Shuls by themselves - after reading this forum and the other “frum” site I am fairly confident in saying they are not.

So what happens? We have more sickness and more deaths. Why? Because we never learn our lesson.

My fatherinlaws shul in Flatbush was open a full two weeks longer than my shul in five towns. So many people got sick and there were deaths from that shul. I told him what is wrong with your shul just shut it. The reply was “the Rav believes in the koach of teffilah betizibur”. I heard they are making plans to reopen their shul very soon.

So this is why we can’t have minyanim yet. People have a very short-term memory and in general seem to be extremely foolish about this. As sad as it is to say, we cannot leave people to their own devices.

That is what I have been saying for months. But logic is stronger than common sense..

"But oj Simpson got away with murder, what's the big deal j only punched the guy in the face"

Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1884 on: May 14, 2020, 01:55:29 PM »
2. How do you picture this going down? A bunch of guys are hanging around like they always do, when suddenly Jerry has a thought. "Hey Barry, Irv! You know, I actually have yartzeit today! Everyone stay where they are and I'll chap a quick kaddish." ....There's no way this wasn't premeditated. Furthermore, if we can find the time to argue the pros and cons of minyanim here on DDF, you can bet your life this argument has been had ad nauseam on every porch of Century Village.
I know for a fact that at least one of the people specifically called out in the letter already davened and was asked to be metztarif.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1885 on: May 14, 2020, 02:08:43 PM »
Let me fill you in on first hand information that I heard from someone that was part of thy minyan
There was a total of exactly 10 ppl there and everyone was on their own porch.
It was mostly heimish guys and young Isreal feels very threatened by them so they decided that this is the perfect opportunity to get rid of them so they put out this letter. It’s all about politics and has nothing to do with the fact of whether porch minyan should be allowed or not.

I agree it has nothing to do with whether porch minyanim are allowed or not al pi halacha, and everything to do with people thinking that it's ok not to listen to a rav. Frankly, I hate that "heimish guys" has become code for people who have no respect for authority, who get to write their own shulchan aruch, and then blame the repercussions on "politics."

I know for a fact that at least one of the people specifically called out in the letter already davened and was asked to be metztarif.

I don't recall names being used, but the standard stays the same. By enabling the eriuv rav, you've undermined the authority of the rav and disrespected the community.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1886 on: May 14, 2020, 02:23:14 PM »
I agree it has nothing to do with whether porch minyanim are allowed or not al pi halacha, and everything to do with people thinking that it's ok not to listen to a rav. Frankly, I hate that "heimish guys" has become code for people who have no respect for authority, who get to write their own shulchan aruch, and then blame the repercussions on "politics."

I don't recall names being used, but the standard stays the same. By enabling the eriuv rav, you've undermined the authority of the rav and disrespected the community.
They should definitely be called out, but I think the repercussions are a bit much.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Yitz

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1887 on: May 14, 2020, 02:28:28 PM »


So what happens? We have more sickness and more deaths. Why? Because we never learn our lesson.

I agree with you 100%. I was this past Friday in a cemetery as a relative passed away. I tell everyone that the cemetery was full of fresh graves. Maybe people need to take a visit to see what happens when you are not careful.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1888 on: May 14, 2020, 02:32:01 PM »
They should definitely be called out, but I think the repercussions are a bit much.

I can see why some may have that reaction. I'm looking at it with the assumption that this subject has been intensely debated in that community, as it has in every community. If after all the arguing they still flaunted the rav's decision and in a way that it was public knowledge, I'm not sure the repercussions were unwarranted.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1889 on: May 14, 2020, 02:44:20 PM »
I can see why some may have that reaction. I'm looking at it with the assumption that this subject has been intensely debated in that community, as it has in every community. If after all the arguing they still flaunted the rav's decision and in a way that it was public knowledge, I'm not sure the repercussions were unwarranted.
Was the rav asked recently if they can make a minyan? If not and we're relying on the fact that he didn't change since they closed the shul it's very different.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1890 on: May 14, 2020, 02:53:23 PM »
i understand you are concerned, my question is why are we scrutinizing minaynim more than say grocery shops, hardware stores, office space, airplanes, or a congress testimony? 
I won’t go down that journey with you. All I’ll say is, this thread is about coronavirus and your Shul, so I am responding to a post about a Shul in a thread about shuls with a question about said Shul.


Why would we lift any restrictions at all? maybe because some people have had Covid19 and tested for antibodies and are resuming life to some degree and that includes davaning with a minyan with SD.
Who argued for lifting restrictions? Who argued against? I am asking what measures the Shul took. Your answer, that we needn’t be as careful as earlier, seemed to be based on an assumption that it is safer now than it was. I questioned what you are relying on for that information. Many people also assumed it was safe earlier because it’s like the flu, but that argument turned to dirt pretty quickly. I think.

I’m not saying it’s not, I was just asking for what reason we are assuming it is. A simple “they’re only allowing people with antibodies” would suffice.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1891 on: May 14, 2020, 03:09:00 PM »
Was the rav asked recently if they can make a minyan? If not and we're relying on the fact that he didn't change since they closed the shul it's very different.

Maybe. Was there a history of previous animosity here, like some others have suggested? Also possible. There are a lot of variables that would change this. I cannot speak for the shul and its history, and I have no interest. My posts have been solely defending the shul against the opinion of many that this is a gross overreaction and completely unwarranted.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1892 on: May 14, 2020, 03:23:45 PM »
Maybe. Was there a history of previous animosity here, like some others have suggested? Also possible. There are a lot of variables that would change this. I cannot speak for the shul and its history, and I have no interest. My posts have been solely defending the shul against the opinion of many that this is a gross overreaction and completely unwarranted.
FWIU there has been friction with previous rabbis, but the current rabbi has been a pretty unifying force.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1893 on: May 14, 2020, 03:25:56 PM »
FWIU there has been friction with previous rabbis, but the current rabbi has been a pretty unifying force.

That leads to some great arguments in both directions here.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1894 on: May 14, 2020, 03:40:07 PM »
That leads to some great arguments in both directions here.
Could be, but no longer related to the broader "porch minyanim" question. Looks like an intimate matter instead. Actually can be a good Limud zchus on the excessive response of the letter.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1895 on: May 14, 2020, 03:55:06 PM »
Could be, but no longer related to the broader "porch minyanim" question. Looks like an intimate matter instead. Actually can be a good Limud zchus on the excessive response of the letter.
For a long time already this has been a question of how to deal with someone going against the Rabbi's directives and not specifically about the minyan itself.
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Offline cmey

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1896 on: May 14, 2020, 04:57:41 PM »
Now that there is more context it sounds like that letter was specific to that shuls politics and had little to do with Agudah Guidelines, RCA guidelines, doctors guidelines, R’ Elya Ber Wachtfogels guidelines or anything else that this thread is about. Time to move that discussion to a listening to your Rabbi thread or Shul Politics thread and move on.

But just one more note on that subject. At almost every shul I have attended since I was a kid the rabbi says that there is no talking allowed  in sull. In almost every shul Ive been to there are members ignoring the Rabbi‘s psak and talking. I think it’s gotten better since I was a kid- you literally couldn’t hear  Chazzaras hashas due to the buzz of conversation and I really don’t see that happening now. But I would love to see a letter like that naming names and sanctioning the members who are ignoring the Rabbi.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 05:06:19 PM by cmey »

Offline good sam

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1897 on: May 14, 2020, 05:33:25 PM »
Backyard minyanim are now officially permitted in our community.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1898 on: May 14, 2020, 06:38:47 PM »
Backyard minyanim are now officially permitted in our community.
Which?
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Offline good sam

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1899 on: May 14, 2020, 07:24:28 PM »
Which?
A chashuve community in NY
If you don't care why would you comment?
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