Corona virus and your shul

[Dan]

All those people who spent their Pesach alone with the ultimate mesirus nefesh shouldn't come up to shomayim expecting any reward for it if they shed all precautions the moment they grew bored.

Come at me as hard as you want. I'm davening at home today because of the complete (and needless) disregard at my shul.

Agreed. I have antibodies, but I won't go to any shul that goes right back to normal.

[shaulyaakov]

Are the people who are going to shul and disregarding the regulations going as an expression of Avodas Hashem, or as a way to fuel their desire for "hocking" and getting pleasure from going?

[Sam Finkelstein]

Are the people who are going to shul and disregarding the regulations going as an expression of Avodas Hashem, or as a way to fuel their desire for "hocking" and getting pleasure from going?

I feel uncomfortable making judgment calls, but Avodas Hashem isn't any worse IMO if you get your Aliya standing 8 feet away with a mask.

[Iz]

I feel uncomfortable making judgment calls, but Avodas Hashem isn't any worse IMO if you get your Aliya standing 8 feet away with a mask.

That is a halacha shailah, and should be presented to a rov.
ETA: I am referring to the 8', not the mask.
Regardless, if you hold that one may not have an aliyah from a distance, you can just ask the gabbai to give other people. So this is not really an issue.

[Iz]

Are the people who are going to shul and disregarding the regulations going as an expression of Avodas Hashem, or as a way to fuel their desire for "hocking" and getting pleasure from going?

A third possibility: their rov/doctor has told them that they need not be so stringent about this.

[Sam Finkelstein]

That is a halacha shailah, and should be presented to a rov.
ETA: I am referring to the 8', not the mask.
Regardless, if you hold that one may not have an aliyah from a distance, you can just ask the gabbai to give other people. So this is not really an issue.

Fine. I was trying to point out that there are plenty of precautions which in no way interfere with Halacha or anything. My shul is okay with Aliyos from a distance.

[Iz]

Fine. I was trying to point out that there are plenty of precautions which in no way interfere with Halacha or anything.

Agreed! (At least re "halacha", not so sure aout "anything" )

[shaulyaakov]

A third possibility: their rov/doctor has told them that they need not be so stringent about this.

I'm unaware of a medical consensus that says no masks and distancing is required in a shul.

Remember - pikuach nefesh still comes on to play even if it's a dispute among doctors (we are still required to act stringently).

[avromie7]

Even if they're right and it doesn't cause an absolutely massive second wave... is there anything we encourage as a community that directly causes yesomim, even on a small scale? How are we ok with this?

We never had an issue with people driving cars.

[Yehuda57]

Not saying Cuomo isn't to blame, but where is the community leadership?

Even places like Crown Heights which shut down before the city mandated, on the whole were extremely careful about social distancing, and had clear unified guidance from rabbanim and doctors, have issued statements which are basically saying we're waiting on the state/city to open things up.

People are sick of the hypocrisy and nonsensical guidelines and so they're throwing everything out. It's dangerous and foolish, but who can blame them?

[aygart]

We never had an issue with people driving cars.

Come on. You know better than that analogy.

[avromie7]

Growing consensus that it was much earlier than previously reported due to lack of tests.

Many people, including myself and a friend who came with me and other DDFers, very likely caught it at KWFE NYC on 2/17. Yet it took another 4 weeks after that to realize that people were getting sick and to close things down.

If that happened now, wouldn't people realize it much earlier?

[chevron]

Not sure why you put a -1 there, your statement and my statement aren't mutually exclusive, but rather complement each other.

Before shuls closed down, I was "extreme". I would discard everything I saw in 770's coffee area every time I would walk in, I scolded the people running the place for not making paper towels, tissues and hand sanitizers widely available. But that was definitely a different time. Now you have a situation where everyone you talk to had symptoms to one extent or another (you have to state that you had symptoms and recovered in order to be allowed into 770), people feel (and to some extent - legitimately so) oppressed. People feel they have paid a heavy price, and are being demanded to keep on paying a heavy price in the proper functioning and wellbeing of homes and families. And then comes this ridiculous decree of 10 people, irrespective of shul size. There is no way this doesn't blow up.

I remember this discussion. Hence the thread.

It's impossible to say when things started. Could be many early infected had no symptoms. Could be many chalked it off as flu or a headache.

But the main thing is, conducting yourself prudently is key.

Just because There's no upstick in cases means everything is fine. My friend in ch said "we did not see this coming It went from 0 to 60

How are you supposed to see it coming?

[Jellybelly]

Come on. You know better than that analogy.

Why? Which ones more dangerous at this point?

[Iz]

Remember - pikuach nefesh still comes on to play even if it's a dispute among doctors (we are still required to act stringently).

Thanks for the reminder. I guess the rabonim who hold otherwise are just מקילים or not as knowledgable.
In any case, my post was about the people in shul. No need to tar them as hockers. Maybe they are following their rabonim (who are מקילים...).

[avromie7]

Come on. You know better than that analogy.

I use that analogy specifically when people take the other extreme that there is essentially no such thing as acceptable risk. Once we agree acceptable risk exists (as evidenced by the fact that we drive cars) we can discuss what is an acceptable risk.

[Jellybelly]

Is there a way to have the quote from Rabbi reisman about ayin tov automatically pop up when you click on this thread?

[ExGingi]

Just because There's no upstick in cases means everything is fine. My friend in ch said "we did not see this coming It went from 0 to 60

How are you supposed to see it coming?

I might be wrong, but early on (I'm talking before Purim and shortly thereafter) there were those that saw it coming (myself being one of them) and those that didn't. The situation now is very different. It came indiscriminately to those that saw it and those that didn't (except for very few older individuals). We are in a different world now. We are in an environment where virtually everyone had some symptoms and even those that didn't were exposed.

If there's anything that COVID-19 should teach us, it to have some humility to acknowledge that we don't know everything, and can't control everything. We do our best hishtadlus, but then trust and leave it to the one that does now and control everything.

[aygart]

Why? Which ones more dangerous at this point?

If you go with the most optimistic assumptions them definitely driving. If you go with the most pessimistic assumptions definitely the virus. Anything in the middle can go one way or the other.  In any event we are relying on assumptions.

[lubaby]

Is there a way to have the quote from Rabbi reisman about ayin tov automatically pop up when you click on this thread?

Add it to the wiki.