Corona virus and your shul

[S209]

The steps should be based on how much / what type of exposure is involved, and perhaps bearing in mind how many people are affected by their closure. Not by throwing darts at a board to choose random industries.

+1000

Except it’s not darts, it’s purely agenda driven

[avromie7]

I disagree with you about the concept of steps as it is a good way to see what restrictions are key but agreed about the rest. This arbitrary drip drip is bonkers.

We probably won't see the effects for a lot longer than 2 weeks, so we won't actually learn anything from it before the next step.

[Lurker]

you respond by firstly making a false claim that i want everything to return back to normal (citation needed)

.....I left out a few

The questions we have to ask;
how does it affect different age groups etc.?
How fatal is this virus?
And a simple CBA of a SHELTER IN PLACE vs going about our daily lives with some common sense measures ?
it's not moronic to point out that 40k people die in the US annually from car accidents and never did we say "lets discuss banning cars"

please be specific what "These" are?

And yet, 40K people die every year in the USA from car accidents.
The point being, that as a society we've accepted that the benefits of being able to drive in cars outweigh the cost.   

The situation is not going to change drastically in the immediate future , so if you aren't in a risk group and i were in your shoes, i would calculate the risk of contracting Covid19 and going about my daily life or Sheltering in place till .....and going to the extreme and sanitizing everything that enters my home and what quality of life that may be .

Its worth pointing out to those that keep promulgating that this virus may mutate enough to render all of us who have had Covid19, and have fully recovered, that "you aren't really immune" and as such should modify our behavior accordingly. you are essentially saying that nothing is going to change for the next few years, and that only furthers the idea that we should just go about our daily lives as the cost remains the same.

Regardless, in your scenario you are staying home, the question is whether or not you can force me to stay home as well.
So in this case, you presume that i am swinging my fist, the only issue is, you are safely tucked away in you bunker, and therefore i may continue to swing at the air.....
As Ben Shapiro often says "Facts don't care about your feelings".

You keep on Falling back on Cuomos mentality of "if we can only save one life"
The answer is death isn't always inevitable!
It is obvious to the intellectually honest that the risk of death goes up as soon as one steps outside ones house.
You have never answered the basic question, at what cost are you willing to delay the inevitable?

I would like to think that we will stop calling those that think that we should return to some semblance of normalcy "Selfish Money hungry murderers", but unfortunately i think that many will disagree with me in the name of virtue signaling while posting videos from their marble bathtub as a grand piano is being played or smoking cigars in a Jacuzzi tucked away in some Malibu mansion while offering no alternatives.

Nothing funny about this.
It's on you to prove that children are affected when presumably millions of children have already recovered from Covid 19.
And while your at it, why don't you come up with some alternative other then everyone staying home.

There should have been an option for "I've had Covid19 and have antibodies therefore only SD when the other party cares to" or something to that effect.

In response to this:

Question for all the people here that think it's not time to open the country yet.
When will it be the time?
What will it take for you to be comfortable with the country opening?
Is the answer realistic?

I've been asking this question for too long.

I am optimistic, if we separate the vulnerable population, i dont think we will have a high death toll.

It takes personal responsibility and discipline, not government regulation.

Whatever term you would like to use.
It would mean all nursing homes and the like are quarantined and regulated by government (Capsuled employees, no readmission to patients who test positive, etc).
People who are at home with any vulnerability to Covid are going to have to take personal responsibility to self isolate as long as there is a risk of infection in their area.
I think people care about their own lives way more than any government bureaucrat in Albany, Tallahassee, or Sacramento.

TL;DR - Government should stay out of our business and just protect at risk populations. Everyone else, maybe take some precautions, maybe don't, that's on you. Death is inevitable, as is ending stay-at-home measures, so since we take acceptable risks every day like driving cars, let 'er rip.

How is what I said not what your position is? Save the indignation.

[etech0]

We probably won't see the effects for a lot longer than 2 weeks, so we won't actually learn anything from it before the next step.

Right. Which is why maybe it should be divided into 3 larger steps instead of 25 smaller ones.

[avromie7]

Right. Which is why maybe it should be divided into 3 larger steps instead of 25 smaller ones.

The 25 smaller ones serve no purpose, and there's nothing we're going to learn from them other than protests in the streets. That being said, how are we 6 weeks from the peak and we're barely getting started on opening up when this was just to flatten the curve?

[Lurker]

Understood. Although my post wasn't directed at you specifically.
 I'm all for keeping some restrictions, I have an issue with the slow drip we see in NJ and other places. I still believe there is some balance where we can mitigate the effects of a second wave (limit big events and protect the vulnerable) as well as open up everything else, at this point I think we should go straight to that without all the baby steps in the middle.

No one disagrees that many, if not most, of the "calculated" openings make no sense. I think that @Yehuda57 is right, in that the frustrations about the regulations not making sense are causing people to abandon the facts and all reason when it comes to that actual virus itself. If you keep the argument to your issues with government inefficiencies, we'll probably agree on much more. But when you bring the costs of the lockdown for suicide and anxiety, and risks of younger people being negligible, so precautions taken to avoid getting sick are misguided, that's where you lose me. The science is what it is, and just because we're missing some of it, doesn't mean we abandon safety until we learn more.

[etech0]

The 25 smaller ones serve no purpose, and there's nothing we're going to learn from them other than protests in the streets. That being said, how are we 6 weeks from the peak and we're barely getting started on opening up when this was just to flatten the curve?

Yes

[avromie7]

No one disagrees that many, if not most, of the "calculated" openings make no sense. I think that @Yehuda57 is right, in that the frustrations about the regulations not making sense are causing people to abandon the facts and all reason when it comes to that actual virus itself. If you keep the argument to your issues with government inefficiencies, we'll probably agree on much more. But when you bring the costs of the lockdown for suicide and anxiety, and risks of younger people being negligible, so precautions taken to avoid getting sick are misguided, that's where you lose me. The science is what it is, and just because we're missing some of it, doesn't mean we abandon safety until we learn more.

I didn't say precautions are misguided, I said the fear is misguided.

[YitzyS]

Wrong thread.

Umm how? Thats literally what the thread title says. Its about corona and shul. Don't think anything would be more befitting

This thread is reserved for putrid waste and repulsive posts that would otherwise taint the reputation of any upstanding thread.

off-topic, argumentative, and ad-hominem posts dumped into the "Coronavirus and your Shul" dumpster fire.

@yaakov35 - your post belongs in a far more respectable thread, where it will have much better shidduchim prospects.

[Yehuda57]

No one disagrees that many, if not most, of the "calculated" openings make no sense. I think that @Yehuda57 is right, in that the frustrations about the regulations not making sense are causing people to abandon the facts and all reason when it comes to that actual virus itself. If you keep the argument to your issues with government inefficiencies, we'll probably agree on much more. But when you bring the costs of the lockdown for suicide and anxiety, and risks of younger people being negligible, so precautions taken to avoid getting sick are misguided, that's where you lose me. The science is what it is, and just because we're missing some of it, doesn't mean we abandon safety until we learn more.

The risks of lockdown are so much worse than this upticks in anxiety, and having stricter lockdown advocates continually minimizing them is as frustrating as it is to you when you feel people are being reckless about other people's lives.

How many people had cancer treatments paused because of lockdown? Thousands. How many will die because of that? Unknown. I know of one person who was informed last week that because of his missed treatments, his cancer has advanced too far to be treated when he had been treatable pre covid.

How many people had hip or knee replacements and haven't been able to have the required physical therapy? I have a relative who had an ACL repaired, a meniscus removed, and was in the midst of therapy which was put on hold for two months (and counting). There's no telling the long term effects of that - from early-onset arthritis to his leg not fully recovering altogether.

Just today the NYT had a story talking about all the deaths caused by people not making it to the hospital in time.

There are the special needs kids who cannot get their therapy remotely, and cannot go to school remotely and need constant supervision from their parents who haven't been able to work remotely even if their job allowed for it.

Thousand upon thousands have lost everything. And I mean everything. I happen to be extremely lucky to have a job I could do remotely and a home I could escape to away from my apartment. But what of my neighbors who don't have such jobs? Neighbors who have been couped up in a one, and two-bedroom apartments for more than two months with anywhere from 1 to 6 kids?

This is a tiny drop in the bucket.

Believe me, we know how bad Corona is. We don't want a second wave. We've buried enough people. But we also know that the however bad the lockdown is, we haven't even begun to see the long term effects it is going to have. People are sick of being called "grandma killers" and cold-hearted murderers who never think of the yesomim.

People would be far more inclined to heed your concerns if there was a drop more empathy in your posts and if you acknowledged even slightly the dangers of these long lockdowns. People aren't just giving up because they are "fed up" - people are barely hanging on by a thread.

[Lurker]

The risks of lockdown are so much worse than this upticks in anxiety, and having stricter lockdown advocates continually minimizing them is as frustrating as it is to you when you feel people are being reckless about other people's lives.

How many people had cancer treatments paused because of lockdown? Thousands. How many will die because of that? Unknown. I know of one person who was informed last week that because of his missed treatments, his cancer has advanced too far to be treated when he had been treatable pre covid.

How many people had hip or knee replacements and haven't been able to have the required physical therapy? I have a relative who had an ACL repaired, a meniscus removed, and was in the midst of therapy which was put on hold for two months (and counting). There's no telling the long term effects of that - from early-onset arthritis to his leg not fully recovering altogether.

Just today the NYT had a story talking about all the deaths caused by people not making it to the hospital in time.

There are the special needs kids who cannot get their therapy remotely, and cannot go to school remotely and need constant supervision from their parents who haven't been able to work remotely even if their job allowed for it.

Thousand upon thousands have lost everything. And I mean everything. I happen to be extremely lucky to have a job I could do remotely and a home I could escape to away from my apartment. But what of my neighbors who don't have such jobs? Neighbors who have been couped up in a one, and two-bedroom apartments for more than two months with anywhere from 1 to 6 kids?

This is a tiny drop in the bucket.

Believe me, we know how bad Corona is. We don't want a second wave. We've buried enough people. But we also know that the however bad the lockdown is, we haven't even begun to see the long term effects it is going to have. People are sick of being called "grandma killers" and cold-hearted murderers who never think of the yesomim.

People would be far more inclined to heed your concerns if there was a drop more empathy in your posts and if you acknowledged even slightly the dangers of these long lockdowns. People aren't just giving up because they are "fed up" - people are barely hanging on by a thread.

Here's an overshare for you: I worked in buying and selling concert tickets. My industry is gone, and will take forever to come back. When it does, I won't be in it. I have a ridiculous amount of debt because of the business, and if not for mortgage deferment programs, I'd be well on my way to losing my house. I have 2 sisters who work with special needs kids in NY, so I'm well aware of the struggles there. Cancer... my FIL just finished chemo for his third type of cancer, and is lucky to have finished when he did, so I'm not insensitive to that, either. As I've shared previously, I had the wonderful experience of having a baby during this time, with other kids in the house all day, and the only family to help is said high-risk FIL. All of the mental health stuff? I think we've covered enough of that. I get that people don't know these things about me when I post, and I may come off and cold and uncaring. I hope this puts my opinions into some sort of perspective.

[reed]

Great shuir by Rav Meir Twerski but the best part is how he succinctly explains that everyone yearning to reopen Shuls is purely out of restlessness and no basis In Halacha or science.

https://www.torahweb.org/audio/rtwe_052420_video.html

[Yehuda57]

Here's an overshare for you: I worked in buying and selling concert tickets. My industry is gone, and will take forever to come back. When it does, I won't be in it. I have a ridiculous amount of debt because of the business, and if not for mortgage deferment programs, I'd be well on my way to losing my house. I have 2 sisters who work with special needs kids in NY, so I'm well aware of the struggles there. Cancer... my FIL just finished chemo for his third type of cancer, and is lucky to have finished when he did, so I'm not insensitive to that, either. As I've shared previously, I had the wonderful experience of having a baby during this time, with other kids in the house all day, and the only family to help is said high-risk FIL. All of the mental health stuff? I think we've covered enough of that. I get that people don't know these things about me when I post, and I may come off and cold and uncaring. I hope this puts my opinions into some sort of perspective.

I really and truly wish you the best, and hope you come out of this better and stronger. But this is the whole point. There's no pity scorecard. We're all getting hit in different directions, some harder than others. But the continued assertions that people clearly don't care and the constant downplaying of the risks and hardships of the lockdown are making things worse.

We have been in agreement on this topic pretty much from the beginning of this plague. So why have I been arguing with you this week? Perhaps because we do agree so much that when I see your arguments being made with such a dismissive tone it pisses me off way more than if it would be someone else  I don't agree with at all.

You have said that if one person takes more precautions because of your posts it will all have been worth it, and that's true! I just don't think anyone will take your arguments seriously when you stake out so haughty a position that anyone who argues with you clearly doesn't care about people dying.

[Lurker]

I really and truly wish you the best, and hope you come out of this better and stronger. But this is the whole point. There's no pity scorecard. We're all getting hit in different directions, some harder than others. But the continued assertions that people clearly don't care and the constant downplaying of the risks and hardships of the lockdown are making things worse.

We have been in agreement on this topic pretty much from the beginning of this plague. So why have I been arguing with you this week? Perhaps because we do agree so much that when I see your arguments being made with such a dismissive tone it pisses me off way more than if it would be someone else  I don't agree with at all.

You have said that if one person takes more precautions because of your posts it will all have been worth it, and that's true! I just don't think anyone will take your arguments seriously when you stake out so haughty a position that anyone who argues with you clearly doesn't care about people dying.

I'm not looking for pity, which I why I didn't bring these things up. I never claimed to be more sensitive or more effected than anyone else, first because it's not true, and second because I don't feel those should be factors when making a point. I try to argue with logic and facts, and ask questions when there are things I don't understand, either about the facts or someone's opinions. The nastiness can be cut back on, but it mainly comes out (I think) when the logic and the science are being blatantly ignored to the detriment of public safety, or when people use others' suffering as an excuse to get their own lives back to normal. I'm far from a perfect person, and I definitely don't always make the best argument. Stupidity has always been a trigger for me, and hopefully I can be more cognizant not to let it affect the toichen of what I feel needs to be said. I'll probably fail at that, but point taken.

[Yard sale]

One place I know of stopped lending out Sifrei Torah to Yard minyanim to force the last few holdouts who would otherwise use his place during the week, indoors. I guess it’s his sifrei torah but really doesn’t sit well with me. You may not agree with the guy that doesn’t want to go indoors but respect his right to make the decision that is comfortable for him even if he isn’t high risk.

[S209]

One place I know of stopped lending out Sifrei Torah to Yard minyanim to force the last few holdouts who would otherwise use his place during the week, indoors. I guess it’s his sifrei torah but really doesn’t sit well with me. You may not agree with the guy that doesn’t want to go indoors but respect his right to make the decision that is comfortable for him even if he isn’t high risk.

I don’t even understand it. What possible reason could someone have for wanting people indoors? To what end?

[skyguy918]

Great shuir by Rav Meir Twerski but the best part is how he succinctly explains that everyone yearning to reopen Shuls is purely out of restlessness and no basis In Halacha or science.

https://www.torahweb.org/audio/rtwe_052420_video.html

This thing is over an hour long. Maybe point us to some relevant timestamps?

[ExGingi]

Great shuir by Rav Meir Twerski but the best part is how he succinctly explains that everyone yearning to reopen Shuls is purely out of restlessness and no basis In Halacha or science.

https://www.torahweb.org/audio/rtwe_052420_video.html

Didn't listen, but based on your description I would ask whether the science of mental health is discussed.

[Ergel]

Didn't listen, but based on your description I would ask whether the science of mental health is discussed.

If you look at the article I posted previously, he is specifically referring to shuls, not the broader lockdown and safe ways of having outlets from the lockdown
https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/957191/rabbi-mayer-e-twersky/the-prohibition-to-conduct-minyanim-and-other-gatherings-in-america-at-this-time/

[ExGingi]

If you look at the article I posted previously, he is specifically referring to shuls, not the broader lockdown and safe ways of having outlets from the lockdown
https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/957191/rabbi-mayer-e-twersky/the-prohibition-to-conduct-minyanim-and-other-gatherings-in-america-at-this-time/

If this write-up is a written version of the shiur posted by @reed, then @reed did a disservice with the description.