Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 459154 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2800 on: June 08, 2020, 11:48:19 AM »
Do you have any insight into WHY people in those two neighborhoods might be acting differently?
My feeling in Lakewood is influence of anti-vaxxers (דוק ותשכח) coupled with incoherence and overkill from those who are supposedly following science which showed that they were not fact based either.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Jerseysteve

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2801 on: June 08, 2020, 12:08:42 PM »
Do you have any insight into WHY people in those two neighborhoods might be acting differently?
For whatever reason  Chasidim have a different הנהגה ....

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2802 on: June 08, 2020, 12:10:12 PM »
My feeling in Lakewood is influence of anti-vaxxers (דוק ותשכח) coupled with incoherence and overkill from those who are supposedly following science which showed that they were not fact based either.

You're suggesting that these are the reasons for no distancing and no masks?  That people are thinking "I don't trust the 'experts'" so I'll just do whatever I feel like? 

For whatever reason  Chasidim have a different הנהגה ....

That's my question - What might be the reason?

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2803 on: June 08, 2020, 12:13:13 PM »
You're suggesting that these are the reasons for no distancing and no masks?  That people are thinking "I don't trust the 'experts'" so I'll just do whatever I feel like? 

Once they are not trusting the "experts" that leaves everyone open to becoming their own "expert" and making up reasoning to do as he pleases. (I am sure I am guilty of the same)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2804 on: June 08, 2020, 12:20:03 PM »
Once they are not trusting the "experts" that leaves everyone open to becoming their own "expert" and making up reasoning to do as he pleases. (I am sure I am guilty of the same)

So they have a "made-up reasoning" to justify their behavior? 

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2805 on: June 08, 2020, 12:23:06 PM »
So they have a "made-up reasoning" to justify their behavior? 

Just read the last few pages here.

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2806 on: June 08, 2020, 12:31:04 PM »
Just read the last few pages here.
Okay, be back in 187 pages...

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2807 on: June 08, 2020, 12:34:46 PM »
Okay, be back in 187 pages...

You don't need to go that far back.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Barryg

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2808 on: June 08, 2020, 12:46:23 PM »
Okay, be back in 187 pages...
can someone please post the directions to get more posts per page. For all biobook has contributed he shouldn’t have to live through the hardships of 187 pages instead of having 57

Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2809 on: June 08, 2020, 01:05:24 PM »
So they have a "made-up reasoning" to justify their behavior?
When the "experts" reasoning is shown to be made up, why would people follow the "experts" made up reasoning over their own?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2810 on: June 08, 2020, 02:09:24 PM »
When the "experts" reasoning is shown to be made up, why would people follow the "experts" made up reasoning over their own?
You're conflating politicians with scientists. The medical experts didn't "make up" their reasoning, it was based on history and studies with other infectious diseases; the entire time they were saying, explicitly and implicitly - "we don't know, but based on what we do know about other viruses we should be doing XYZ".


(And the jury is still out on whether the medical experts got it wrong.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 02:18:58 PM by Euclid »

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2811 on: June 08, 2020, 03:15:59 PM »
When the "experts" reasoning is shown to be made up, why would people follow the "experts" made up reasoning over their own?
Are you referring to the science or the policies put in place which was supposedly based on the science?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2812 on: June 08, 2020, 03:30:15 PM »
You're conflating politicians with scientists. The medical experts didn't "make up" their reasoning, it was based on history and studies with other infectious diseases; the entire time they were saying, explicitly and implicitly - "we don't know, but based on what we do know about other viruses we should be doing XYZ".


(And the jury is still out on whether the medical experts got it wrong.)
Are you referring to the science or the policies put in place which was supposedly based on the science?
Your average person has a hard time discerning what's "expert" reasoning and what's political reasoning. When you have politicians using the "expert" Neil Ferguson data to make their decisions for the public, you really can't blame the public for losing faith. The general public really doesn't care who's at fault, the fact is the powers that be messed up royally but still refuse to take responsibility and instead dig their heels in the ground instead of opening up the economy (I think we all agree the extent of this extended shutdown is ridiculous). The fact that stores are dangerous but protests are recommended doesn't help their image.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2813 on: June 08, 2020, 03:37:41 PM »
R’ Yisroel Newman told a friend of mine last week that he should wear a mask when he goes to shul. Not high risk, but in contact with some older people.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Jerseysteve

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2814 on: June 08, 2020, 04:23:00 PM »
For whatever reason  Chasidim have a different הנהגה ....
There seems to mistrust to the Government ingrained in them, even though we live in a מדינה של חסד attitudes did not change much from the Carpathian Mountains. This is for health issues פרנסה and other thing in our interaction with government ודי לחכימא ברמיזא.

Offline yossig

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2815 on: June 08, 2020, 06:40:04 PM »
There seems to mistrust to the Government ingrained in them, even though we live in a מדינה של חסד attitudes did not change much from the Carpathian Mountains. This is for health issues פרנסה and other thing in our interaction with government ודי לחכימא ברמיזא.
:o

Offline yelped

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2816 on: June 08, 2020, 07:21:47 PM »

Offline yossig

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2817 on: June 08, 2020, 10:16:23 PM »
Go ahead. State your position.
its nice to see how a whole community is being smeared just like that

Offline Jerseysteve

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2818 on: June 08, 2020, 10:31:46 PM »
its nice to see how a whole community is being smeared just like that
חלילה - it is undisputed that in Boro Park they have a different הנהגה in regard to covid 19. I was just attempting to offer my 2 cents on why.

Offline biobook

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2819 on: June 08, 2020, 10:40:32 PM »
My question was Why do some shuls observe SD and masks, while others don't?

It can't be due to the discomfort of masks, because that shouldn't differ in Flatbush vs BP. 
 
These two reasons seem likely, based on what was written here over the last month:

Mistrust of government and politicians
Several people thought the policies announced were unreasonably strict.  I was surprised to see this aggravation expressed at a few weeks of “restrictions”, given the rather large number of restrictions that frum yidden accept for a lifetime.  But it does seem like many non-maskers just want to get back to normal.

Misunderstanding of scientific and medical expertise
Some comments here: “They’re making it up” “Their advice keeps changing” “People stayed home and still got sick”  This seems to be a misunderstanding of how medical and scientific knowledge develops.  Scientists and doctors usually spend years to reach consensus on the best treatment for a particular condition, but in this case, they were doing this very rapidly and in view of a public that was unfamiliar with the nature of scientific discovery. 

Some people responded to this by deciding to trust themselves as experts, using “common sense”:  Assuming that if no uptick in cases occurred in a short time, then masks are no longer needed.  Assuming that if one doesn’t understand why the return to normal is done little by little, then “common sense” decrees these steps are  absurd.  Assuming that if “no one died in that shul”, then it’s obvious that they’re safe there without masks.  Assuming that if “everyone I know” had COVID or has antibodies, then our community is immune to further disease. 

This also surprised me, as I would have expected that a community that values education would seek up-to-date knowledge on which to base critical health decisions, rather than relying on intuition.  But perhaps education has been too narrow, as Reed suggested:

Why can’t we be smart, proactive, cautious?! Is it because we don’t go to college and therefore we don’t see science as an integral part of life? Is it our Yeshiva system that teaches us that we are smarter than everyone else and to scoff at the secular?

Two reasons suggested for why some shuls DO have SD and mask-wearing:

Having a respected authority, either a Rabbi of the shul or community or a Board of Directors that makes and enforces the policy.

Social pressure  Many commented that “Everybody” or “Nobody” wore a mask in a particular shul or town, and that influenced their own subsequent behavior.  The desire to follow the crowd seems to play a role, as well as the concern for specific individuals.   @Yard sale gave an example of deciding to put on a mask when visiting a health provider who had lost a spouse to COVID.