Corona virus and your shul

[AsherO]

The scientists and govt officials knowingly mislead the country regarding wearing masks.

Source?

[biobook]

Quote from: biobook on Today at 12:04:42 AM

    I would have expected to see a greater awareness of public health issues and a push for more science education in our community, but instead I'm hearing that the way to prevent viral epidemics is to make smaller weddings and talk about not talking about LH.

This!!!! We wasted an opportunity for our rabbanim to address these issues head on and prevent future outbreaks in our community ch”v. People were getting sick at an incredible rate and in the middle of all of it an agenda about weddings was being pushed.

I'm glad we agree! 
So do you see people taking advantage of this opportunity today, going forward, to educate the community about public health, so as to prepared for future illnesses and epidemics?

[avromie7]

Agreed.  But if the medical community doesn't really understand it yet, wouldn't people wait for the medical community to learn more about this virus before declaring that the mageifa is over?

I guess they aren't too worried about the unknown

[ExGingi]

This I actually find encouraging!  It shows that the doctor, in the best medical tradition, is weighing new evidence and changing his practice based on the new facts he learns.

Most likely a result of a little strong arming from the public health department, coupled with the rise in drug abuse in our communities.

[Traveler718]

I probably shouldn't wade in here, but I ask this as someone still strictly SD and wearing a mask in Flatbush. I understand where everyone says the group that's abandoned these practices is coming from - mistrust of doctors and politicians and a sense that they have herd immunity and others are getting away with it, etc., etc. - all the arguments. I get it.

But we're at least dealing with the possibility of a safek pikuach nefesh (not to mention chillul Hashem, which is a biggie as well). As a religion, we tend to be pretty machmir in such cases, paskening that that's enough to push aside everything we do except for 3 things (which don't apply here). They say that a gadol hador once publicly made kiddush on Yom Kippur during a mageifah to make sure everyone would eat and drink and stay alive.

We're not asking anyone to do that, just to wear a $.50 mask when they come to shul. So even if they don't trust the doctors and politicians, how many of the people who've "paskened" that the mask is unnecessary asked their Rav - who I hope they still trust - whether they are allowed to discard it? If their Rav told them it's okay, I might have issues with the Rav, but at least they can feel that they asked a shailah.

But if not, who among us self-proclaimed chachamim has big enough shoulders to pasken that a shailah of safek pikuach nefesh and safek chillul Hashem l'kula? If they would go to the Rav with a kashrus mess in the kitchen or with a questionable bedikah, why isn't the question of a mask worth asking to your Rav?

[biobook]

I agree with almost everything you write. Regarding trusting science and govt,
The scientists and govt officials knowingly mislead the country regarding wearing masks. Now, maybe they were justified maybe they weren't but the bottom line is that when you lie to someone, even for a good reason there will breakdown of trust.

I understand your annoyance at the changing messages regarding masks.  I heard the same messages, and was also confused by them, but after reading more about the issue, I wouldn't characterize them as misleading or lies, but rather as poor communication.  I wouldn't say that I distrust the CDC, but rather that they need to explain their advice better.

As I understand it, they initially suggested that everybody where masks, because this is well-known to decrease the spread of respiratory infections, both in medical facilities, and in countries that experienced the earlier SARS epidemic.

But they failed to foresee two problems in America with this epidemic:

1. The supply chain was such that it could be manipulated by individuals who hoarded masks or accumulated them for resale, thereby decreasing the supply in medical facilities.

2. While proper use of masks can decrease disease transmission, improper use of masks may have no effect or actually spread the disease.  New doctors and nurses get one-on-one training from more experienced personnel on proper use of masks, but 300 million Americans were not given clear directions on how to use them.

After seeing what was happening, the CDC discouraged use of masks at that time, and emphasized social distancing, where masks might be less critical.

Later, when the supply of masks increased again, they re-emphasized mask-wearing.  This was at least in part due to the effect that social pressure has on mask-wearing.  If nobody is wearing a mask, then those who have COVID would be embarrassed to emphasize their status by wearing a mask.  If everybody is wearing a mask, then the COVID-positive person's germs will be effectively blocked, even if the cost to everyone else is the relatively slight inconvenience of wearing a mask.

Do you still think this advice was misleading?  How do you think they could have improved on communicating this in a way to maintain your trust?

[aygart]

Can everyone here agree to the FACT that the communities that are open for weeks already have not seen an uptick?

That it is #fakenews. There HAS been an uptick literally. As in tick not outbreak. Hopefully it stays there and only improves without getting worse.

[aygart]

The super chasidish and yeshivish have pretty much been back to regular since a week or 2 after pesach, and people aren't getting sick, so as far as they see it, it's gone. And since their shuls have been open for well over a month now and older people haven't been dying, means one of 2 things. Either shul isn't really spreading and therefore keeping them closed didn't make sense. Or that its finished, there isn't really a logical explanation.

Another possibility is that it takes longer than you are assuming. Hopefully that is not the case.

[aygart]

Percentage is probably less of what you think, a small minority who makes a lot of noise.

Whose names are being quoted saying that all schools should reopen. דוק ותשכח

[Dan]

Another possibility is that it takes longer than you are assuming. Hopefully that is not the case.

Especially considering that they're now saying it took from August to January to explode in Wuhan...

[PlatinumGuy]

Especially considering that they're now saying it took from August to January to explode in Wuhan...

I very highly doubt that. Even Trump isn't claiming that, and aside from the fact that Harvard doctors are in a series of scandals, they aren't at all qualified in analyzing intelligence. I suspect even if traffic did grow compared to the previous season, it can be attributed to a growing population

[Kobe Bryant]

That it is #fakenews. There HAS been an uptick literally. As in tick not outbreak. Hopefully it stays there and only improves without getting worse.

Can not figure out why anyone would assume otherwise.
Do people believe this virus has been eradicated from the face of the planet?

[Afrages6]

I'm glad we agree! 
So do you see people taking advantage of this opportunity today, going forward, to educate the community about public health, so as to prepared for future illnesses and epidemics?

No. Because weddings and lashon hora are juicier topics for people to talk about.

[ExGingi]

That it is #fakenews. There HAS been an uptick literally. As in tick not outbreak. Hopefully it stays there and only improves without getting worse.

How about the mortality rate?

[S209]

Can everyone here agree to the FACT that the communities that are open for weeks already have not seen an uptick?

I can agree that some communities have basically reopened (NOT FULLY. WEDDING, LEVAYOS, SCHOOLS, INTERACTION WITH THE ELDERLY ARE VERY DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE) and have not seen an outbreak yet B”H.

[aygart]

How about the mortality rate?

Meanwhile BH no real mortalities.

[yossig]

Meanwhile BH no real mortalities.

what are you referring to by “real mortalities”?

[aygart]

what are you referring to by “real mortalities”?

I didn't think deeply into the term. AFAIK there are no recent mortalities.

[EliJelly]

I didn't think deeply into the term. AFAIK there are no recent mortalities.

They definitely figured out something they didn't know 2 months ago when the hospitals piled bodies in the freezer daily. Another reason why people tend to ease things up.

[aygart]

They definitely figured out something they didn't know 2 months ago when the hospitals piled bodies in the freezer daily. Another reason why people tend to ease things up.

They figured out how to be younger people?

The big question is what is the comparable stage from the last round to where we are today. I think it is pretty clear that we are at 2 weeks before Purim at the very latest. In order for it to have spread to the amount of people who had it shortly after purim the had to have been THOUSANDS of cases within the frum community when Purim started. It took about a month from the similar stage for that to happen.