Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 325335 times)

Offline shulemw

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2940 on: September 21, 2020, 02:04:32 PM »
There are a lot of rabbanim that say there is no way to stop it and everybody will eventually get it any way, second the SIDE affects of this whole chaos spiritually and mentally is a big big factor too.

Open your ears to hear other opinions then yours instead of just arguing a whole day over and over.

A lot of our gedolim in israel from the top list are in this above opinion

Offline Lurker

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2941 on: September 21, 2020, 02:21:02 PM »
There are a lot of rabbanim that say there is no way to stop it and everybody will eventually get it any way, second the SIDE affects of this whole chaos spiritually and mentally is a big big factor too.

Open your ears to hear other opinions then yours instead of just arguing a whole day over and over.

A lot of our gedolim in israel from the top list are in this above opinion

First, the premise that "everybody will  eventually get it any way" is false, and I have yet to hear a Rov or a doctor say this.

Second, even if this were true, getting it now is not going to be the same as getting it in a year from now or even 6 months from now, as the treatment protocols continue to evolve and improve. I don't believe there is halachic basis to put people in more danger now based on the assumption that they'll eventually get it. Anything I've heard suggests the opposite.

Third, this argument relies on the false binary options of lockdown or normalcy. To disregard the options in between and to advocate for no measures to be taken is hepech halacha, and I don't believe any posek has taken that position (at least publicly).

Fourth, and most importantly, what does any of this have to do with rabbonim sanctioning Covid+ people leaving isolation to daven in tents outside of shuls?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2942 on: September 21, 2020, 02:24:28 PM »

Fourth, and most importantly, what does any of this have to do with rabbonim sanctioning Covid+ people leaving isolation to daven in tents outside of shuls?

I can't see the reasoning behind not allowing a COVID+ minyan separated from everyone else. THe risk is so minimal if done right that there was probably more risk at your shul than from these .
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2943 on: September 21, 2020, 02:25:39 PM »
Understand that it is virtually unheard of for rabbonim to advise the klal to disregard a medical consensus unless it is hepech halacha.
You yourself have conceded that it can work if done properly. Not sure what your issue is.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2944 on: September 21, 2020, 02:27:29 PM »
I can't see the reasoning behind not allowing a COVID+ minyan separated from everyone else. THe risk is so minimal if done right that there was probably more risk at your shul than from these .
You yourself have conceded that it can work if done properly. Not sure what your issue is.

Doing them in any proximity to the general public is not doing them properly.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2945 on: September 21, 2020, 02:30:57 PM »
Doing them in any proximity to the general public is not doing them properly.
What do you consider "proximity"? How close were these?
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2946 on: September 21, 2020, 02:42:18 PM »
What do you consider "proximity"? How close were these?

Close enough that tens, if not hundreds, of Covid+ and Covid-exposed people were using the same streets and access points at the same times as everyone else.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2947 on: September 21, 2020, 02:52:56 PM »
Close enough that tens, if not hundreds, of Covid+ and Covid-exposed people were using the same streets and access points at the same times as everyone else.
What makes you think this happened any more because of the minyan? Either way, the risks from passing outdoors are so low.
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Offline chevron

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2948 on: September 21, 2020, 03:09:19 PM »
What makes you think this happened any more because of the minyan? Either way, the risks from passing outdoors are so low.

Ironic that the metzora has to go out of the camp.

But covid-19 positive people, eh!


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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2949 on: September 21, 2020, 03:10:39 PM »
Either way, the risks from passing outdoors are so low.
Source?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2950 on: September 21, 2020, 03:15:04 PM »
What makes you think this happened any more because of the minyan? Either way, the risks from passing outdoors are so low.

Why would it have been happening anyway? Why are Covid+ people walking around?

And the risks of passing one contagious person may be low, but that doesn't mean you can turn hundreds of them loose on the streets and expect the risks to stay low.
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Offline aygart

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Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2952 on: September 21, 2020, 03:25:04 PM »
Why would it have been happening anyway? Why are Covid+ people walking around?

And the risks of passing one contagious person may be low, but that doesn't mean you can turn hundreds of them loose on the streets and expect the risks to stay low.
I think you are overstating what happened.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2953 on: September 21, 2020, 03:38:55 PM »
I think you are overstating what happened.

Maybe. I still haven't heard a halachic basis for allowing it at any level.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2954 on: September 21, 2020, 03:45:17 PM »
Also, there's a heavy dose of irony in "we listen to Daas Torah unquestioningly" when coupled with "the rabbonim made the minyanim because people wouldn't listen and would be out and about anyway," especially when these minyanim is not the first time this concept has been brought up.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2955 on: September 21, 2020, 04:05:04 PM »
Maybe. I still haven't heard a halachic basis for allowing it at any level.
I think you first need to explain why it should be an issue. I see the risk as being lower than the risk in your shul.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2956 on: September 21, 2020, 04:14:02 PM »
I think you first need to explain why it should be an issue. I see the risk as being lower than the risk in your shul.

The issue is that the universal medical consensus is to quarantine when you are exposed, and to isolate if you are infected. As I understand it, sanctioning mass disregard of medical protocol would require that the protocol itself be in violation of halacha. Absent that violation of halacha, what basis is there for such guidance?
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2957 on: September 21, 2020, 04:23:52 PM »
The issue is that the universal medical consensus is to quarantine when you are exposed, and to isolate if you are infected. As I understand it, sanctioning mass disregard of medical protocol would require that the protocol itself be in violation of halacha. Absent that violation of halacha, what basis is there for such guidance?
If they deem it safe then making tfilah btzibur available for everyone for R"H davening should be the aim.

Offline aygart

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2958 on: September 21, 2020, 04:29:17 PM »
The issue is that the universal medical consensus is to quarantine when you are exposed, and to isolate if you are infected. As I understand it, sanctioning mass disregard of medical protocol would require that the protocol itself be in violation of halacha. Absent that violation of halacha, what basis is there for such guidance?
Just because they paint in broad strokes doesn't mean everyone should turn their head off. That is how you get people calling everything full lockdown. By discussing with local doctors one can create a protocol for this that has low risk. Why shouldn't a Rov follow that? They can be careless about these protocols when it comes to the Peaceful Protests that are important to them while we can keep to low risk manners of breaking the heilige protocols for what is important to us. Keeping to protocols when the risk is so low is a losing argument. You (and I) keep saying that people should use their heads and not just ignore everything they are told just because some incompetent made crazy rules. This is the flip side of it.

As an aside, I was on the phone with the Chair of Epidemiology at a local hospital who was asked about keeping mikvaos open. He said that he did not see an issue because it was such a brief exposure it was very low risk. For these people to go outside with masks is even lower.
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #2959 on: September 21, 2020, 06:27:20 PM »
You're right; we should use our heads. For years and years, whenever someone was sick, especially with anything more serious than a cold, we understood that they should stay home. Employers, schools, shuls, and other gathering places have consistently asked people with strep, bronchitis, flu, and other contagious diseases to stay home to keep others from getting sick. Comes Covid, and all of a sudden we're painting with broad strokes? Something that has the ability to cripple our community's infrastructure and cause actual deaths, and we start looking for loopholes?

If a rov discussed with local doctors and there is both a medical and halachic basis for these decisions, they should be publicized. I'm not saying they don't exist; I've just asked what they are. Crickets.

And please don't throw the Peaceful Protests in here. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has said that anyone who is Covid+ or Covid exposed can or should be at protests. Is there a double standard in public policy? Sure. Asked and answered and it's wrong. But this is not that. This isn't shutting down shuls or schools or stores or even parties. This is keeping sick people at home.
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