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ExGingi: Good morning Dan, how's you day going?

Dan: It's going well, thanks for asking.

ExGingi: Wrong. Bh you woke up, thanks to Hashem as explained in modeh ani and even more in depth in inyanei shel toras hachasidus. If you would understand that sicha properly you would know that one doesn't simply wake up, it's not us who wake up, but rather thanks to the brachas of the rebbe and Hashem's help we wake up.
« Last edited by jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:27:32 PM »

Author Topic: Shlichus Addiction?  (Read 91556 times)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #160 on: April 20, 2017, 05:22:29 PM »
PS: I just realized that this is post #2000! Am I required to do a JTZ/Houdini act?

Moved to JS, so you have another chance at 2k
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #161 on: April 20, 2017, 05:27:06 PM »
ExGingi: Good morning Dan, how's you day going?

Dan: It's going well, thanks for asking.

ExGingi: Wrong. Bh you woke up, thanks to Hashem as explained in modeh ani and even more in depth in inyanei shel toras hachasidus. If you would understand that sicha properly you would know that one doesn't simply wake up, it's not us who wake up, but rather thanks to the brachas of the rebbe and Hashem's help we wake up.

Reminds me of

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #162 on: April 20, 2017, 05:49:29 PM »
Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koFlWXgX52E

I was going to comment that when posting such a one word sentence, it should probably end with an exclamation point (though I didn't learn English in high school, so I might be wrong). That type of sentence has definitely not been my style for many years (I think the last time I made such an exclamation I was pre-Bar Mitzvah, or thereabout).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #163 on: April 20, 2017, 05:52:58 PM »
Another question to be asked, from all those espousing secular education as a preparation for life/parnossa, is whether the "Al Taharas Hakodesh" Lubavitch curriculum is optimized towards preparing for Shlichus?

I would not be surprised, if educational experts were to be invited to chime in, and be given the ultimate purpose of Shlichus (of which only a percentage of actual work is directly related to what's studied in Yeshiva), they would design an entirely different curriculum. Public speaking, language skills, communication skills, counseling skills, etc. would take center stage of such a curriculum. Yet, our yeshivas do not focus on any of those.
So our yeshivas don't properly prepare kids for jobs or shlichus. Cool.

I disagree with this. Preparation for shlichus is limud haTorah. It's not just my opinion, it's something I've heard from many shluchim including Berel Lazar, who you might think would have benefited from some sort of communications or politics class.

To be sure, the Rebbe demanded shluchim use their talents and skills, and they should certainly hone those skills and improve them. But their job is to be mekabel pnei Moshiach tzidkeinu by being meifitz chassidus and getting yidden to do mitzvos. Their job is not to deliver speeches, give invocations, or write editorials. Sure, those are important tools, but they are only tools with which to impart all the knowledge they picked up in their years in yeshivah.

As in my above example, a shliach's success is not due to his public speaking, writing or counseling acumen. When I was 14 years old on mivtzoim and a man sought my counsel on his failing business, troubled familial relationships and more, he obviously wasn't seeking my advice, but he was benefiting from my compassion. Not that I'm an especially kind personality, just that I happened to be the Rebbe's shliach to that person in that moment. And I did help him out, otherwise why would he keep seeking my counsel every week? My age, skills and knowledge had nothing to do with it, any comfort I brought to that Jew was with the power vested in me by the Rebbe.

In many ways, shluchim are like audacious 14 year old know nothing kids. They are the Rebbe's men on the spot. Sure one might be able to deliver a pilpul, another a punchline, and yet another might be able to explain bilti baal gvul without illustrations. But the power they have to effect the world in the grand way they do comes from the Rebbe, and no amount of vocational training will change that.
   
By the way, there are some yeshivas that do offer such classes. In fact, a relative of mine told me of a public speaking class in which they had to deliver a speech based on the techniques and skills learned in the class. He gave a speech which had all the bochurim laughing and engaged, but "failed" (I don't believe the class counted for anything) and upset the instructor who complained he didn't use the specific formula he had taught.

Sure, each school could use improvement in any number of areas, just as that public speaking teacher probably wasn't the best guy for the job. But to say that a yeshivah that only teaches bochurim nigleh and chassidus without vocational instruction is not preparing them for shlichus is like saying a medical school that only teaches medicine without communication studies isn't preparing students to become doctors.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #164 on: April 20, 2017, 06:04:55 PM »
I disagree with this. Preparation for shlichus is limud haTorah. It's not just my opinion, it's something I've heard from many shluchim including Berel Lazar, who you might think would have benefited from some sort of communications or politics class.

To be sure, the Rebbe demanded shluchim use their talents and skills, and they should certainly hone those skills and improve them. But their job is to be mekabel pnei Moshiach tzidkeinu by being meifitz chassidus and getting yidden to do mitzvos. Their job is not to deliver speeches, give invocations, or write editorials. Sure, those are important tools, but they are only tools with which to impart all the knowledge they picked up in their years in yeshivah.

As in my above example, a shliach's success is not due to his public speaking, writing or counseling acumen. When I was 14 years old on mivtzoim and a man sought my counsel on his failing business, troubled familial relationships and more, he obviously wasn't seeking my advice, but he was benefiting from my compassion. Not that I'm an especially kind personality, just that I happened to be the Rebbe's shliach to that person in that moment. And I did help him out, otherwise why would he keep seeking my counsel every week? My age, skills and knowledge had nothing to do with it, any comfort I brought to that Jew was with the power vested in me by the Rebbe.

In many ways, shluchim are like audacious 14 year old know nothing kids. They are the Rebbe's men on the spot. Sure one might be able to deliver a pilpul, another a punchline, and yet another might be able to explain bilti baal gvul without illustrations. But the power they have to effect the world in the grand way they do comes from the Rebbe, and no amount of vocational training will change that.
   
By the way, there are some yeshivas that do offer such classes. In fact, a relative of mine told me of a public speaking class in which they had to deliver a speech based on the techniques and skills learned in the class. He gave a speech which had all the bochurim laughing and engaged, but "failed" (I don't believe the class counted for anything) and upset the instructor who complained he didn't use the specific formula he had taught.

Sure, each school could use improvement in any number of areas, just as that public speaking teacher probably wasn't the best guy for the job. But to say that a yeshivah that only teaches bochurim nigleh and chassidus without vocational instruction is not preparing them for shlichus is like saying a medical school that only teaches medicine without communication studies isn't preparing students to become doctors.
Spot on!
and whaddaya know?
that same unadulterated לימוד תורה (preferably על טהרת הקודש) which prepares one so well for a life of shlichus, by imparting a knowledge and appreciation for hashem, his torah, and the awareness that אין עוד מלבדו, also happens to be a great prep for a life of a chassidisher balebos (perhaps even more so...), and for that matter, the best prep for a frum jewish life at all...

and isn't that the 'core' of what shlichus should be about anyway?

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #165 on: April 20, 2017, 06:41:25 PM »
Finally!
The mashpiim are talking.
כמים קרים על נפש עייפה.
I appreciate the unapologetic responses
I don't sin, I give myself opportunities to repent.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #166 on: April 20, 2017, 06:47:40 PM »
Finally!
Some of the mashpiim are talking.
כמים קרים על נפש עייפה.
I appreciate the unapologetic responses

FTFY

Some of the most successful Shluchim from the 60s and 70s still can't give a proper sermon, but they speak from the heart and people listen. IMHO it's a good thing we don't have "educational experts" modeling our Shluchus prep ("Educational Institute Oholei Torah" is good enough :D )
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #167 on: April 20, 2017, 06:54:54 PM »
I disagree with this. Preparation for shlichus is limud haTorah. It's not just my opinion, it's something I've heard from many shluchim including Berel Lazar, who you might think would have benefited from some sort of communications or politics class.

To be sure, the Rebbe demanded shluchim use their talents and skills, and they should certainly hone those skills and improve them. But their job is to be mekabel pnei Moshiach tzidkeinu by being meifitz chassidus and getting yidden to do mitzvos. Their job is not to deliver speeches, give invocations, or write editorials. Sure, those are important tools, but they are only tools with which to impart all the knowledge they picked up in their years in yeshivah.

As in my above example, a shliach's success is not due to his public speaking, writing or counseling acumen. When I was 14 years old on mivtzoim and a man sought my counsel on his failing business, troubled familial relationships and more, he obviously wasn't seeking my advice, but he was benefiting from my compassion. Not that I'm an especially kind personality, just that I happened to be the Rebbe's shliach to that person in that moment. And I did help him out, otherwise why would he keep seeking my counsel every week? My age, skills and knowledge had nothing to do with it, any comfort I brought to that Jew was with the power vested in me by the Rebbe.

In many ways, shluchim are like audacious 14 year old know nothing kids. They are the Rebbe's men on the spot. Sure one might be able to deliver a pilpul, another a punchline, and yet another might be able to explain bilti baal gvul without illustrations. But the power they have to effect the world in the grand way they do comes from the Rebbe, and no amount of vocational training will change that.
   
By the way, there are some yeshivas that do offer such classes. In fact, a relative of mine told me of a public speaking class in which they had to deliver a speech based on the techniques and skills learned in the class. He gave a speech which had all the bochurim laughing and engaged, but "failed" (I don't believe the class counted for anything) and upset the instructor who complained he didn't use the specific formula he had taught.

Sure, each school could use improvement in any number of areas, just as that public speaking teacher probably wasn't the best guy for the job. But to say that a yeshivah that only teaches bochurim nigleh and chassidus without vocational instruction is not preparing them for shlichus is like saying a medical school that only teaches medicine without communication studies isn't preparing students to become doctors.
I fail to see how a few classes that cut into a little bit of bullshove time or even out of seder time on speaking could possibly be a bad thing. As if every second in Zal is spent only for 100% learning...let's l'hachos not give over anything that might also be useful in life.

I've been to too many Chabad Houses where the shliach drones on for half an hour while failing to convey a coherent thought. I know firsthand where people in various communities dread having to listen to that week after week.
A few classes on how to focus your thoughts and give it over in a short amount of time could have helped them immensely. It's the case of I would have written a shorter letter if I had more time.

I've been to funerals where a shliach's grammatical mistakes did indeed offend the family. You can be OK with that, but it doesn't take away from the awkwardness of the situation.

I've seen shluchim who have no clue how to manage their finances or balance a budget. A few classes on finance would be so disastrous?

And yes, many people would argue nowadays that a medical school that doesn't give over a good bedside manner to their students have indeed failed in their preparation of the doctors.

Call me an apikores if you'd like, but read SLBO first to pop your eyes wide open as to what's happening on the street.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #168 on: April 20, 2017, 06:55:43 PM »
FTFY

Some of the most successful Shluchim from the 60s and 70s still can't give a proper sermon, but they speak from the heart and people listen. IMHO it's a good thing we don't have "educational experts" modeling our Shluchus prep ("Educational Institute Oholei Torah" is good enough :D )
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #169 on: April 20, 2017, 06:55:51 PM »
FTFY

Some of the most successful Shluchim from the 60s and 70s still can't give a proper sermon, but they speak from the heart and people listen. IMHO it's a good thing we don't have "educational experts" modeling our Shluchus prep ("Educational Institute Oholei Torah" is good enough :D )
Maybe they were just more heartzig than the ones going out now. I dunno...
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #170 on: April 20, 2017, 06:56:10 PM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #171 on: April 20, 2017, 06:58:07 PM »
Spot on!
and whaddaya know?
that same unadulterated לימוד תורה (preferably על טהרת הקודש) which prepares one so well for a life of shlichus, by imparting a knowledge and appreciation for hashem, his torah, and the awareness that אין עוד מלבדו, also happens to be a great prep for a life of a chassidisher balebos (perhaps even more so...), and for that matter, the best prep for a frum jewish life at all...

and isn't that the 'core' of what shlichus should be about anyway?
Yup, and going to a mesivta like PIT sets one up for failure. No appreciation for hashem, his torah, or the awareness that אין עוד מלבדו.
Because other mesivtas and Zal only have 100% unadulterated לימוד תורה.
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #172 on: April 20, 2017, 07:04:57 PM »
Finally!
The mashpiim are talking.
כמים קרים על נפש עייפה.
I appreciate the unapologetic responses
Yehuda57, eloquent as usual, echoed my thoughts, though I was trying to bring them across in the form of a question to ponder.

I'm no English expert, but I would probably prefer the word foundation over preparation for describing the relationship between limud haTorah and Shlichus (though I'm not disputing the fact that it does prepare one, it's just that to me the word preparation seems to have more of a focus on the future, whereas foundation seems to be more along the lines of חב"ד מאנט פנימיות).

That being said, my father-in-law, who is an esteemed mashpia, says that when he grew up in PIT (and probably even before that) the words Shlichus and Hiskashrus were not part of the vocabulary used in his house. It was all about doing what one has to do.

Along those lines, with the proper על טהרת הקודש education (which doesn't necessarily mean no math or studying only in Yiddish or לשון הקודש), one is prepared for the real life, and represents the Rebbe wherever he or she is! I know a few people that do "shlichus type" work, in an unofficial capacity. They created their own organizations, do their "shlichus" work in NYC (or even in Crown Heights) without encroaching on anyone else, and live right here in כאן צוה ה' את הברכה!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:13:00 PM by ExGingi »
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #173 on: April 20, 2017, 07:09:10 PM »
Finally!
The mashpiim are talking.
כמים קרים על נפש עייפה.
I appreciate the unapologetic responses

Wait, I went from someone messed up for life for having seen a picture of the kav to a celebrated mashpiah?

Funny how that works.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #174 on: April 20, 2017, 07:11:51 PM »
Wait, I went from someone messed up for life for having seen a picture of the kav to a celebrated mashpiah?

Funny how that works.
Not everyone is as detail oriented as you are.  ;D
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #175 on: April 20, 2017, 07:31:46 PM »
Wait, I went from someone messed up for life for having seen a picture of the kav to a celebrated mashpiah?

Funny how that works.



I am not joking. Maybe over exaggerating.








It can't be that the explanation of the scenario placated him?
I don't sin, I give myself opportunities to repent.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #176 on: April 20, 2017, 07:43:26 PM »
I fail to see how a few classes that cut into a little bit of bullshove time or even out of seder time on speaking could possibly be a bad thing. As if every second in Zal is spent only for 100% learning...let's l'hachos not give over anything that might also be useful in life.

I've been to too many Chabad Houses where the shliach drones on for half an hour while failing to convey a coherent thought. I know firsthand where people in various communities dread having to listen to that week after week.
A few classes on how to focus your thoughts and give it over in a short amount of time could have helped them immensely. It's the case of I would have written a shorter letter if I had more time.

I've been to funerals where a shliach's grammatical mistakes did indeed offend the family. You can be OK with that, but it doesn't take away from the awkwardness of the situation.

I've seen shluchim who have no clue how to manage their finances or balance a budget. A few classes on finance would be so disastrous?

And yes, many people would argue nowadays that a medical school that doesn't give over a good bedside manner to their students have indeed failed in their preparation of the doctors.

Call me an apikores if you'd like, but read SLBO first to pop your eyes wide open as to what's happening on the street.

Far from calling you an apikores, I agree with you a whole lot. Nowhere in my post do I say yeshivos should not offer public speaking courses. In fact I commented that the one place I knew of that offered it had the wrong teacher - not that they should not be offering it all. Yes, communication is an important part of being a doctor, but it is of secondary importance. My point was simply about the assertion that a solely kodesh curriculum does not prepare one for shlichus, which I objected to.

I don't believe education in our schools should even be about preparing for shlichus. That would also help in removing the stigma of non shluchim. As much as the Rebbe spoke about chiuch al taharas hakodesh, did he ever once mention the need for a school to create shluchim? I would be surprised if he did.

I already addresses secular studies in schools, noting that OT was arguably the Rebbe's exception, not rule. How do you figure I go from there to public speaking courses = apikurses?

I am not on Facebook, so I am not on SLBO, but believe me I am well aware of the struggles of finding a job - especially one that meets the high cost of living as a frum Jew.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #177 on: April 20, 2017, 07:48:59 PM »


No worries, at least it's sincere ;)
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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #178 on: April 20, 2017, 08:21:15 PM »


No worries, at least it's sincere ;)
In my eyes, the biggest problem with such shlichus opportunities is that the teens include boys.
I don't sin, I give myself opportunities to repent.

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Re: Shlichus Addiction?
« Reply #179 on: April 20, 2017, 08:23:44 PM »
In my eyes, the biggest problem with such shlichus opportunities is that the teens include boys.
There is no opportunity, just an opprotunity.
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