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Author Topic: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!  (Read 17338 times)

Offline TimT

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2020, 12:52:51 PM »
Source?
Because the numbers are skyrocketing by the hour & old folks are still out & about mingling.

Offline good sam

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2020, 12:53:50 PM »
How could you expect people to believe every threat? Every day nutjobs are saying that the whole planet will be under water in two years. Should we believe that too?

I agree, however, that rabbonim should have ordered shuls and schools shut down before Purim when the threat was already apparent.
If we saw videos of China underwater we would probably start taking climate change pretty seriously
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2020, 12:55:28 PM »
How could you expect people to believe every threat? Every day nutjobs are saying that the whole planet will be under water in two years. Should we believe that too?

I agree, however, that rabbonim should have ordered shuls and schools shut down before Purim when the threat was already apparent.

The Jews in Hungary and Romania thought that Poland was different.

It's always the same story. You see a fast spreading threat, The first thing you need to do is that assume that it's going to come and affect you.

Then you need to evaluate how it's going to affect you and what steps to take before it does.

About the most everyone did was stop eating Chinese food..

Offline avromie7

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2020, 12:58:28 PM »
The vast majority of our Rabbonim (of all walks of life) have very little understanding of the concept of when the Torah does NOT want you to do certain Mitzvos. They fail to see the forest for the trees.

I saw an entire pilpul about whether a diabetic can carry sugar or check their sugar levels on Shabbos. Recommending various shinuy's etc. Total idiocy. It's not a pilpul. The answer is yes. The Torah says "vchay bahem". End of story.
This is ridiculous. First of all everything in halacha is up for discussion. Second of all (and proving my point about #1) why are you so sure carrying should be permitted? maybe he should stay home.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2020, 01:00:05 PM »
Because the numbers are skyrocketing by the hour & old folks are still out & about mingling.
So who made the calculation that it will take 3-4 days before the current supply (including 2,000+ in the state stockpile)? Spreading false numbers is the reason people don't take this seriously.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 01:01:44 PM »
This is ridiculous. First of all everything in halacha is up for discussion. Second of all (and proving my point about #1) why are you so sure carrying should be permitted? maybe he should stay home.

I'm not sure I follow any form of logic here. Why is ushmartem up for discussion?

Since when is mikva and minyan yihareg v'al yaavor?

Why do some people need to make this into a whole gezeiras shmad?

This misguided Torah is literally killing us..

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2020, 01:03:00 PM »
So who made the calculation that it will take 3-4 days before the current supply (including 2,000+ in the state stockpile)? Spreading false numbers is the reason people don't take this seriously.

I'm not spreading false rumors, that's my logic for at least running out of ICU beds. Hopefully they have more respirators and I'm happy to hear that they have in storage.


Offline avromie7

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2020, 01:04:42 PM »
I'm not sure I follow any form of logic here. Why is ushmartem up for discussion? Everything is. The gemara discusses many ridiculous proposals.

Since when is mikva and minyan yihareg v'al yaavor? I never said it was

Why do some people need to make this into a whole gezeiras shmad? I never said it was

This misguided Torah is literally killing us..
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2020, 01:12:51 PM »

Thats Nice in yeshiva however when it comes l'mayse
ג  כשעושים דברים אלו, אין עושין אותן לא על ידי גויים, ולא על ידי קטנים, ולא על ידי עבדים, ולא על ידי נשים--כדי שלא תהא שבת קלה בעיניהם; אלא על ידי גדולי ישראל וחכמיהם.  ואין מורין לנשים לעשות דברים אלו.  ואסור להתמהמה בחילול שבת, לחולה שיש בו סכנה, שנאמר "אשר יעשה אותם האדם וחי בהם" (ויקרא יח,ה), ולא שימות בהם.  הא למדת, שאין משפטי התורה נקמה בעולם, אלא רחמים וחסד ושלום בעולם.  ואלו המינים שאומרים שזה חילול ואסור, עליהן הכתוב אומר "וגם אני נתתי להם, חוקים לא טובים; ומשפטים--לא יחיו, בהם" (יחזקאל כ,כה).
["-"]

Offline TimT

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2020, 01:14:06 PM »
So who made the calculation that it will take 3-4 days before the current supply (including 2,000+ in the state stockpile)? Spreading false numbers is the reason people don't take this seriously.
People arenít taking it seriously because they donít want to be inconvenienced.

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2020, 01:26:17 PM »
People arenít taking it seriously because they donít want to be inconvenienced.

Or because we have plenty saying it's no big deal...

https://youtu.be/UijhbHvxWrA

2000 respirators in state stock pile is like paying the national debt in Penny's

Offline TimT

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2020, 01:27:17 PM »
This wouldn't work for Brooklyn, but for out of town communities what about weekday minyanim in parking lots, where everyone besides maybe the chazan, stays in their cars to daven.
https://mobile.twitter.com/lindataitelbaum/status/1239913971307761669

Offline avromie7

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2020, 01:37:11 PM »
Thats Nice in yeshiva however when it comes l'mayse
ג  כשעושים דברים אלו, אין עושין אותן לא על ידי גויים, ולא על ידי קטנים, ולא על ידי עבדים, ולא על ידי נשים--כדי שלא תהא שבת קלה בעיניהם; אלא על ידי גדולי ישראל וחכמיהם.  ואין מורין לנשים לעשות דברים אלו.  ואסור להתמהמה בחילול שבת, לחולה שיש בו סכנה, שנאמר "אשר יעשה אותם האדם וחי בהם" (ויקרא יח,ה), ולא שימות בהם.  הא למדת, שאין משפטי התורה נקמה בעולם, אלא רחמים וחסד ושלום בעולם.  ואלו המינים שאומרים שזה חילול ואסור, עליהן הכתוב אומר "וגם אני נתתי להם, חוקים לא טובים; ומשפטים--לא יחיו, בהם" (יחזקאל כ,כה).
OP was complaining about a pilpul shiur about it. I think we're on the same page.


People arenít taking it seriously because they donít want to be inconvenienced.
Or because we have plenty saying it's no big deal...

https://youtu.be/UijhbHvxWrA

2000 respirators in state stock pile is like paying the national debt in Penny's

Spreading false rumors helps no one.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Yehudaa

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2020, 01:40:00 PM »
This wouldn't work for Brooklyn, but for out of town communities what about weekday minyanim in parking lots, where everyone besides maybe the chazan, stays in their cars to daven.
I know of at least one shul in my community that's doing that. Not necessarily in cars but they asked ppl to bring their own siddur and not come near anyone else.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2020, 01:42:21 PM »
I don't lay blame on rabbanim. Their job is not to be doctors or infectious disease specialists. If local doctors and government agencies had put rules in place weeks ago, or at least before Purim, rabbanim could have enacted rules accordingly. Instead we got silence and now people are complaining that minyanim aren't being shut down while alternate side parking is still in effect.

The rabbanim who are not following guidelines are few and far between. It's the guidelines coming from the government that have been insufficient.



Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline TimT

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2020, 01:44:57 PM »
I don't lay blame on rabbanim. Their job is not to be doctors or infectious disease specialists. If local doctors and government agencies had put rules in place weeks ago, or at least before Purim, rabbanim could have enacted rules accordingly. Instead we got silence and now people are complaining that minyanim aren't being shut down while alternate side parking is still in effect.

The rabbanim who are not following guidelines are few and far between. It's the guidelines coming from the government that have been insufficient.
Shomer Shabbos is still going strong. Old people are still being allowed into many shuls. This is long after government agencies have issued warnings. Itís insane that marshals need to come kick people out of weddings.

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2020, 01:46:10 PM »
OP was complaining about a pilpul shiur about it. I think we're on the same page.

  Spreading false rumors helps no one.

Oh? And your credentials are what ?


Offline avromie7

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2020, 01:49:16 PM »
Oh? And your credentials are what ?
You were the one making claims that would require credentials, not me.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2020, 01:52:19 PM »
I don't lay blame on rabbanim. Their job is not to be doctors or infectious disease specialists. If local doctors and government agencies had put rules in place weeks ago, or at least before Purim, rabbanim could have enacted rules accordingly. Instead we got silence and now people are complaining that minyanim aren't being shut down while alternate side parking is still in effect.

The rabbanim who are not following guidelines are few and far between. It's the guidelines coming from the government that have been insufficient.

Not true.. doctors urged schools to close.. it was like "oh the public schools are open "

What was / is gained by waiting and holding off every day? Short of making things worse.. It's not even about holding off to the last minute and postponing the invitable.  Every hour.  The spread gets worse

Offline chevron

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Re: A lesson from Italy ?! Rabbanim wake up!!
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2020, 01:55:38 PM »
You were the one making claims that would require credentials, not me.

You accused me of spreading false rumors. I may have been off on respirators (please back up your claims on 2k availability)  but I was 💯 on target about ICU capacity.

The official numbers of infected is a joke.. to say otherwise is like telling me the sky is pink..

Every day cases are growing by many leaps and bounds .. Do you feel to understand the mathematics behind that??

If 100 people were diagnosed today and I would say it's probably more like a thousand then tomorrow there's going to be 500 or 5000