Author Topic: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?  (Read 87730 times)

Online aygart

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #340 on: May 07, 2020, 11:00:49 AM »
I do think that the attitudes expressed by@zale are hastily a result of the way he feels treated by his school. He feels they try to milk what they can and they are refusing to listen to anyone who has different circumstances now. From that perspective his points do make much more sense. Thankfully I have never had such an experience.
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #341 on: May 07, 2020, 11:06:54 AM »
To all the people who keep bringing up "the teachers and administrators are working so hard" as a reason to take money from parents: You must be confused. Anu ameilim u'mekabilim schar refers to learning torah and schar in the next world. In the world of business, working hard is not a justification for taking other people's money. Go join a choshen mishpat in your spare time.

Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #342 on: May 07, 2020, 11:15:40 AM »
To all the people who keep bringing up "the teachers and administrators are working so hard" as a reason to take money from parents: You must be confused. Anu ameilim u'mekabilim schar refers to learning torah and schar in the next world. In the world of business, working hard is not a justification for taking other people's money. Go join a choshen mishpat in your spare time.
To all the people who keep reading small parts of a large post and call charging for a service “taking money”: You must be a socialist. In the world of business, not being compensated for working hard is a reason for people to stop.
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Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #343 on: May 07, 2020, 11:19:30 AM »
I do think that the attitudes expressed by@zale are hastily a result of the way he feels treated by his school. He feels they try to milk what they can and they are refusing to listen to anyone who has different circumstances now. From that perspective his points do make much more sense. Thankfully I have never had such an experience.
Agreed, it sounds like he has a problem with a particular school. I think that based on what he has said they seem to have treated him unfairly, although if the sentiments he has expressed on this thread are how he feels it’s possible the schools are aware of that which is why they are reluctant to work with him. Regardless, it’s unfair to generalize and bash schools because of an unfortunate experience with a solitary institution.

@zale : This is grounds to leave that mossad and go elsewhere, as it seems you really don’t get along with your school, which is terrible for your child’s Chinuch. From what you have mentioned they seem to have treated you poorly.
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Offline Mootkim

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #344 on: May 07, 2020, 03:24:58 PM »
In other news, the Yeshiva Gedolah of Philadelphia put out a blanket letter stating that they will be reducing the tuition for everyone because "the cost of room and board for this time period has shifted to the parents".

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #345 on: May 07, 2020, 08:18:22 PM »
In other news, the Yeshiva Gedolah of Philadelphia put out a blanket letter stating that they will be reducing the tuition for everyone because "the cost of room and board for this time period has shifted to the parents".
Is that similar to other dorm schools and schools with lunch programs that have prorated refunds to reflect that?
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Offline AsherO

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #346 on: May 08, 2020, 07:51:18 AM »
Is there any reason not to reopen babysitting and playgroup services in our areas? I would say that 95 percent of parents sending to such services are under 40 years old. And those that aren't comfortable doing that, shouldn't send.

In case you didn’t see my response in the other thread:

The smart insight you might not want to hear is that the age of parents in the group doesn’t matter.

If contagion happens because of this group, even between two people under 40, it can continue onwards to others who are at higher risk. Or even to multiple people at low>medium risk who might lose the chance lottery and R”L get really sick requiring hospitalization or worse.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline zale

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #347 on: May 08, 2020, 05:54:44 PM »
Bite at what? No reason to attack, I was clearly not trying to be insensitive and just trying to understand, right? No? Oh well, then I guess prefacing with that statement doesn’t actually mean anything if you then go on to attack. Look back and see your post that I was responding to.

LOL. "Bite" is an expression for responding to an argument while suspecting an ambush. I have no intent to attack C"V, but I do very strongly stand by my opinions on this matter. I am open to hearing other opinions, but so far they simply don't hold up. You are correct, the relationship I have with MY childrens' schools are what are shaping my opinions, as well as what I hear from other people about their schools. I do acknowledge that there are some very good schools out there that go above and beyond, but at the same time I am willing to assume that they are the minority.

I don't have a lot of time, so I will respond to the most pertinent things.

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First, you need to understand that a grocery store and school are not equal. Schools operate very differently than other businesses. They are not opened for profits but to provide a service to the community, and it is the community’s obligation to keep them going. We have moved to a model of the parents of children sustaining the schools, proportional to the amount of children attending school, with the help of wealthier benefactors to cover the gaps in revenue, rather than there being an equal burden shared by all community members. This model makes more sense because those deriving more benefits should pay more into the pot, but there are also issues with it, as people note all the time.

There are two responses to this, keeping in mind what I said before that there ARE some good people and schools out there.

  • Schools are not a business, but most are run like a business. The "school" does not make a profit, but the administrators who run the school will typically get a nice salary and get compensated with other benefits as well. The "school's" deficit is irrelevant. Of course, it's in the best interest of those administrators to ensure that the school is able to keep functioning. Squeezing every dollar out of you IS beneficial to them personally. Furthermore, and this is the most important part: parents generally don't get a say in how the school is run. The administrators treat themselves like the bosses and the parents like the customers. You can't come crying about how it's "our" responsibility to come together and keep the school running when there is no "our".
  • Being a service does not absolve the school of being fair financially. If you pay into a service, you still need to get what you paid for. Imagine there was one water well in your neighborhood that everyone had to pay into a management firm to use and keep it up. If there was a drought and there was no water, you would not have to keep paying in full for its upkeep. Whomever was managing it would have to take a paycut or be furloughed until the drought passes.

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With that said, the burden to keep the school going for their child falls largely upon the parents who are sending their child to school. They are fulfilling their obligation to educate their child through the school, and are responsible to help pay for the service.

No. See the example of the well I gave above. Even with a service, you only pay for what you receive. There is no "us" when you don't have a direct say or vote.

Quote
Take an example of a current Prime member who is still using Amazon a lot, but is not currently getting 2 day shipping due to Covid. He is up for renewal. Do you have a right to demand a refund from Amazon for your Prime membership because some of the benefits are now missing? No, you can choose to stop being a member any time. Do you have a right to demand that Gourmet Glatt take responsibility for incorrect items, which they are not doing during Covid? No, you can take your business elsewhere. Can you demand a refund from Geico because you’re driving your car less? No, you can stop using them.

You are using examples that largely work against you.

First, Geico actually did issue discounts across the board, but even if they did not, they are insuring your car whether you drive it or not. You don't pay Geico to drive your car, but to keep it insured while you do. Nothing changed in that regard. A better comparison would be if Geico said they are changing your policy from $100,000 coverage to $10,000.00 coverage. In that case, people WOULD be screaming bloody murder for a refund.

Second, I didn't read through Amazon's terms and conditions, and it's very likely that there is a clause stating that 2-days are not guaranteed, especially in extenuating circumstances. But even if no such clause exists (which is highly unlikely), they are still giving you the fastest possible service available, and you are still getting your items as quick as they can ship it out. In addition, Prime encompasses many more features which they are still providing. This is NO comparison to schools which are CLOSED, and are merely offering classes online, which is NOT the same service. A better comparison would be if Amazon couldn't ship anything to you anymore, and instead stated that you can still use their other services like free Prime Video or free Kindle books. In that case, people WOULD be demanding a refund.

Third, did Gourmet Glatt state upfront that they will be sending incorrect items? I am not familiar with this.

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The schools are offering a diminished product through no fault of their own, but they are still providing their services.

And this is where the crux of the issue is. I disagree. Teaching online is a different service. It is not school as we know it. It does not replace school and it never will. This is exactly like what I stated above, where Amazon says they are no longer shipping items, but you can still take advantage of Prime Video.

Quote
They will also continue to provide those after these issues are over.

No, after these issues are over, they will provide the service they have provided pre-Covid. A service they did not provide during Covid. Please don't try to connect this service to the online class service, as they are not one and the same, and they are not a "continuation" on one another.

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Do you wish to pull your child out of school now, and keep him out forever?

No, I want to pay a reduced rate now, and pay the standard rate when school reopens. Where does "forever" come into this???

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If you are continuing to utilize their services and will continue in the future you have no right to demand a discount or refund. At least as much as any other business could tell you, this is the service they are currently providing and if you don’t like it, leave.

Nope, as stated above, this is not the same service, and any other business that tried this would get smacked.

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Then, you seem to be throwing in the concept of if parents are struggling, teachers should struggle. I know what you said about teachers in your community but in the communities I’m associated with teachers are very poorly compensated.

You are correct. The teachers that I know are living quite comfortably, but even if they were not, there are many other people that are poorly compensated for their jobs. Does that mean that their employers have to continue paying them?

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The school should not proactively reach out and offer a blanket discount for everyone to latch onto. Like you said, many are unaffected by Covid and should not be paying less because of it.

Yes, they should be reaching out. And those whom were unaffected should continue to give out of the goodness of their hearts.

Quote
If your argument is that it’s “fair” for teachers to get paid less because some parents are making less, so therefore schools should unilaterally charge less and then pay teachers less, tell that to Amazon. They’re cutting your benefits, so they should discount your membership and pay their workers less to make it fair.

As stated above, they are still providing the service they laid out in the terms and conditions, and you are still getting items shipped to you. If my child was still going to school, but for a few less hours due to Covid, I wouldn't be demanding a refund.

Quote
If your argument is that they’re providing a diminished product, this is the best service they can now provide and they will return to the previous service when they can. If you are saying you want to withdraw your child from school now and keep him out in the future,

What's with you and the future? When school reopens, I will continue paying as agreed.


I don't have time to go further on this now, but I will reiterate that I do believe that there are nice and mentchlich schools out there, just not the ones I know.

At the end of the day, when it comes down to it, you believe that parents are to bear the burden of the school at all costs. From a tzedaka point of view I can understand that, but then again, I don't believe people should be forced to give tzedaka to a moisad unless they voluntarily choose to do so.

I also want to know, what would your opinion be if the school was NOT doing online or tele-classes?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 05:58:18 PM by zale »

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #348 on: May 08, 2020, 06:01:16 PM »


You quoted here how a school has an OBLIGATION to accept every child whether or not they have the ability to pay. If you are unable to pay they cannot tell you either party or don't take my product. That makes the negotiations over tuition very different than negotiations with a car dealer. A discount from the car dealer is purely a business decision.  Not so at a school. This is the flip side of that coin. Therefore the tuition discounts are very different and the ability to demand a refund changes. If it is a simple fee for service then they have a right to tell you that they will not provide the service without you paying in full. If they have no such right when discussing tuition level then you h have no such right when an emergency prevents them from providing the service. Either you are a customer both when negotiating price and when receiving the service it it is a community obligation both times.


Not returning calls is absolutely not okay and i very much understand your frustrations in that regard. A parent does have a right to say that until we discuss this further they well not pay.

ETA i also understand why when a school does not return calls and will not discuss the changing circumstances of the parents that will change the metrics of what i wrote above. That means that the school is looking at it as a fee for service even though they are not providing it. Not okay.

@zale  please address how a business which has no right to say pay my price or no product should also be told that now threat they are the ones who have extenuating circumstances they should be kept to a firm obligation to deliver?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zale

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #349 on: May 08, 2020, 06:24:01 PM »

@zale  please address how a business which has no right to say pay my price or no product should also be told that now threat they are the ones who have extenuating circumstances they should be kept to a firm obligation to deliver?
I stated earlier that schools have an obligation to take in any child, and I cited the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opinion on the matter.

However, when push comes to shove, schools are not adhering to this. Only the extreme of the extremely poor are given this consideration, and even then it’s not free. The average family that can’t afford it is still told that they should get into more debt or borrow. It’s sad, but it’s true. The most common argument from the school is “we can’t either afford it”.

That said, we are back to square one. The school is issuing you a price quote for their services. The price might be “discounted” from what they
“Truly need” if they wanted to run on tuition alone. But no Jewish school runs on tuition alone, and the price you get has that fact baked in. This makes it a discount much like any other service that offers a discount. If the school tried charging more, parents largely wouldn’t send their kids. So the price is a valid, agreed upon price.

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #350 on: May 08, 2020, 06:31:56 PM »
I stated earlier that schools have an obligation to take in any child, and I cited the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opinion on the matter.

However, when push comes to shove, schools are not adhering to this. Only the extreme of the extremely poor are given this consideration, and even then it’s not free. The average family that can’t afford it is still told that they should get into more debt or borrow. It’s sad, but it’s true. The most common argument from the school is “we can’t either afford it”.

That said, we are back to square one. The school is issuing you a price quote for their services. The price might be “discounted” from what they
“Truly need” if they wanted to run on tuition alone. But no Jewish school runs on tuition alone, and the price you get has that fact baked in. This makes it a discount much like any other service that offers a discount. If the school tried charging more, parents largely wouldn’t send their kids. So the price is a valid, agreed upon price.
I don't know about your schools, but over the years I have dealt with 8 different schools between my children at various ages and every single one was accommodating to my needs at the time. I do not have any of the complaints you mention. Maybe that is the difference between our attitudes.

Just like i am understanding that your school may be different, you should do the same. The issue you bring up is a real one.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 06:52:05 PM by aygart »
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #351 on: May 08, 2020, 06:47:21 PM »
By far the worst part of this is the school people vehemently insisting that parents don't have any valid taynos.

Offline Buruch

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #352 on: May 09, 2020, 10:45:45 PM »
It seems like there is a big difference between various schools in how much the teachers are currently working. No school should be able to even think about charging parents as usual if the teachers aren't, at minimum, putting in the same amount of time and effort as they do under normal circumstances. If you provide only 1-2 hours of zoom a day, take a hike.
If anything, teachers really should be putting in extra hours to make up for the lower quality of learning provided.

Offline etech0

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #353 on: May 09, 2020, 11:09:21 PM »
It seems like there is a big difference between various schools in how much the teachers are currently working. No school should be able to even think about charging parents as usual if the teachers aren't, at minimum, putting in the same amount of time and effort as they do under normal circumstances. If you provide only 1-2 hours of zoom a day, take a hike.
If anything, teachers really should be putting in extra hours to make up for the lower quality of learning provided.
FWIW I hear from some teachers that they are putting in many more hours than usual preparing these zoom/phone lessons, and working more hours than ever.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 11:13:27 PM by etech0 »
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #354 on: May 09, 2020, 11:35:59 PM »
One item to throw out there, what will schools do if they end up with significant shortfalls over this?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yesitsme

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #355 on: May 10, 2020, 12:49:57 AM »
FWIW I hear from some teachers that they are putting in many more hours than usual preparing these zoom/phone lessons, and working more hours than ever.
this is very true
and not only teachers its harder for everyone, including the parents

Offline JMHO

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #356 on: May 10, 2020, 12:51:32 AM »
FWIW I hear from some teachers that they are putting in many more hours than usual preparing these zoom/phone lessons, and working more hours than ever.
Some, yes.
Some, not.

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #357 on: May 10, 2020, 12:53:11 AM »
One item to throw out there, what will schools do if they end up with significant shortfalls over this?
Why would they end up with 'significant shortfalls over this'?
Tuition collection is almost the same, services and expenses are way down and they're making off with millions from our friends in Washington!

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #358 on: May 10, 2020, 12:55:58 AM »
Why would they end up with 'significant shortfalls over this'?
Tuition collection is almost the same, services and expenses are way down and they're making off with millions from our friends in Washington!
Because the facts are not like any of the three things you asserted.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #359 on: May 10, 2020, 01:00:51 AM »
Because the facts are not like any of the three things you asserted.
Sure, some tuition collection might be down but services and expenses are way down. And the money from Washington is flowing in to schools. Let's be honest here....