How should schools and parents deal with tuition?

[aygart]

Obviously that's not going to happen, but that should be the negotiating position against schools that are charging full price and providing meager services.

Not much of a negotiating point when there is no way it can possibly happen.

[yos9694]

Take emotions out of this for a minute.

You pay for school services. No services, no money.

You want to say that you have a contract? I'm sure the contract obligates you to provide services as well. You want to say you can't physically provide services now? Well i can't monetarily pay right now. You can't just look at one part of the contract.

Why is this so complicated?

Because nisyonos of kesef are tough, and klei kodesh is not immune to its temptations.

[aygart]

Because nisyonos of kesef are tough, and klei kodesh is not immune to its temptations.

Especially when the botei din are backing them up.

[Euclid]

Especially when the botei din are backing them up.

Where did you see/hear that? The only psak I saw said clearly that יד המוחזק על העליונה.

[aygart]

Where did you see/hear that? The only psak I saw said clearly that יד המוחזק על העליונה.

You never saw such a thing. You simply misquoted it. We went through this over here.

This is the exact opposite of what is in the tshuva you quoted!

בשאר מוסדות חנוך. אם הוא מוסד ציבורי צריך להמשיך לשלם את הוצאות המוסד בקיזוז שכר המלמד. ובמוסד פרטי דינם כמו שכתבתי בגננות.

Also here

I received this letter from Torah Umesora in my email this morning about tuition. The gedolim are saying to pay from a totally different angle. Not because we signed a tuition contract but because it is our obligation to maintain schools as per תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and in order for the schools to survive tuition needs to be paid.

They also write that schools should extend courtesy to those that are struggling due to the situation.

It is eyeopening to see דעת תורה's angle on this.

And here

Some places did. At least 10 different people on WA sent me the link to baltimores psak.
https://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=129285

Besides what I have heard personally on conferences with dayanim and botei din (including the one from whom you posted and misquoted)

[Euclid]

You never saw such a thing. You simply misquoted it. We went through this over here.

Also here

And here
Besides what I have heard personally on conferences with dayanim and botei din (including the one from whom you posted and misquoted)

How is that a misquote? Are you saying that our schools are public institutions? He clearly says that a private school has the same din as a gan which is יד המוחזק על העליונה.


Also the TU letter is in no way a psak from a beis din, they are very partial here.

[zale]

How can a Beis Din issue a ruling on this without both sides present?

There needs to be a zablo set up where both sides make their cases to determine the ruling on this matter.

Of course botei din will by default say it’s proper to keep paying! They don’t want to be responsible for yeshivos collapsing, and worst case scenario, it’s tzedaka anyway.

The admin of my child’s school refused any discounts, saying they will collapse if they offer such a thing. I told him that as long as this is the policy across the board I will continue paying as a tzedaka, but if I find out that he gave anyone any discounts, I will be calling him back and demanding my money back. It’s either a discount for everyone or for no-one.

[aygart]

How is that a misquote? Are you saying that our schools are public institutions? He clearly says that a private school has the same din as a gan which is יד המוחזק על העליונה.


Also the TU letter is in no way a psak from a beis din, they are very partial here.

The vast majority of our schools are considered community schools. Most likely the only ones which are not would be the seminaries. I heard this directly on a conference call for rabbonim from the Beis Havaad. I think it was the author personally.

I wrote beis din and rabbonim. Taking the opposite position from Rav Hillel David, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, and Rav Aharon Schechter is not a great position to take as partial as you feel they may be.

[Euclid]

The vast majority of our schools are considered community schools. Most likely the only ones which are not would be the seminaries. I heard this directly on a conference call for rabbonim from the Beis Havaad. I think it was the author personally.

I wrote beis din and rabbonim. Taking the opposite position from Rav Hillel David, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, and Rav Aharon Schechter is not a great position to take as partial as you feel they may be.

Interesting, I would think that would only apply to a real community school where there is not a grueling selection process and they take the vast majority of children who apply (not the case in Lakewood).

My mistake - I thought you were referencing the TU letter as psak halacha from a bais din.

[aygart]

How can a Beis Din issue a ruling on this without both sides present?

There needs to be a zablo set up where both sides make their cases to determine the ruling on this matter.

Of course botei din will by default say it’s proper to keep paying! They don’t want to be responsible for yeshivos collapsing, and worst case scenario, it’s tzedaka anyway.

The admin of my child’s school refused any discounts, saying they will collapse if they offer such a thing. I told him that as long as this is the policy across the board I will continue paying as a tzedaka, but if I find out that he gave anyone any discounts, I will be calling him back and demanding my money back. It’s either a discount for everyone or for no-one.

They did discuss how this is more of a basic guideline and does not preclude individual dinei torah. They mentioned that taking a school to a din torah has generally been both foolhardy and futile.

What you told him regarding the discounts does make sense to the extent that it takes the parent's financial hardships into account. If someone just lost all income and is ineligible for any programs they should be able to renegotiate the same way they can at the beginning of the year.

[aygart]

Interesting, I would think that would only apply to a real community school where there is not a grueling selection process and they take the vast majority of children who apply (not the case in Lakewood).

My mistake - I thought you were referencing the TU letter as psak halacha from a bais din.

Any school which is not a private business is community by the parents.

[Euclid]

Any school which is not a private business is community by the parents.

What constitutes private business? Any 501c3 school?

I understand how a non-profit school is run, where the revenue is the property of the institution. However, for all practical purposes a successful school will directly enrich the owner/operator. How does that differ from a private school?

[aygart]

However, for all practical purposes a successful school will directly enrich the owner/operator. How does that differ from a private school?

You have your head in the clouds.

[Euclid]

You have your head in the clouds.

So anyone who opens a school is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts and they all have other jobs to pay their bills?

[Euclid]

The vast majority of our schools are considered community schools. Most likely the only ones which are not would be the seminaries. I heard this directly on a conference call for rabbonim from the Beis Havaad. I think it was the author personally.

Why were you on this call? (Not trying to disrespect at all, just curious if you are involved with a school. Your other posts seem to belie an intimate knowledge of school administration.)

[aygart]

So anyone who opens a school is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts and they all have other jobs to pay their bills?

Most definitely get a salary. That is very different than a private business.

[aygart]

Why were you on this call? (Not trying to disrespect at all, just curious if you are involved with a school. Your other posts seem to belie an intimate knowledge of school administration.)

For the record, my only connection to any school is from my children attending. I have one brother in law who is employed as a Rebbi outside of Lakewood. I do not know what that school is doing regarding anything other than that he teaches via zoom.
Also, my business will be affected significantly from many of our clients using much less or even negative amounts of energy if they have solar (we sometimes actually lose money from that) besides all of the additional customer service required to help clients avoid pitfalls and difficulties with contracting new business.

Most of what I had written is fairly obvious to anyone who really thinks it through. I have spoken with some administrators who confirmed it with me. I reached out proactively to my children's schools to see if I am able to help in any way.

[yesitsme]

.

[AsherO]

.

What were they charging until now?

[yesitsme]

What were they charging until now?

less then what you think