Author Topic: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?  (Read 50680 times)

Offline zale

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2020, 12:40:33 PM »
Schools should listen to Dayanim. All other emotional arguments should be used to try to get donations. The Baltimore beis din claims that they can charge full tuition, while r Shlome Miller claims a peshara excluding mortgage payments. Ami magazine also had an article from a beis din for a peshara.

All kind of emotional arguments, are not a right to charge tuition. In times like this when everyone needs zechusim, schools should not be charging tuition without an absolute heter, otherwise it is geneiva.

The Baltimore Beis Din did not explain their reasoning behind expecting full tuition payments. They base it on the RAMA from a time when parents paid teachers directly. I can understand that they don't want moisdos to crumble C"V, but they need to explain a halachic basis for their reasoning, and why I should be responsible for the schools' building overhead when my child is not there. Only 1/5 of my tuition payments go to my child's melamed. I will happily send that to his melamed if that's what the school agrees to.

That said, the schools need to be proactive and reach out to parents. They want to be in denial, that's fine, but they will pay the price later unfortunately. It's much harder to negotiate with angry parents, vehamayvin yavin.

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2020, 12:41:36 PM »
Can I pay the teachers directly and get a tuition credit from the school?

The situation you described before is the big question on what I wrote and I hope that it is not the typical.
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Offline zale

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2020, 12:45:24 PM »
I know everybodyís situation is different.
The way I feel for me...
I have three boys, 9,7,4.
The 9&7 year old in elementary school are busy most of the day with online learning. I know their teachers and Rabbis are working hard. Iím ok paying.

My 9 year old is getting 45 minutes a day with his Rebbi. I get angrier about this with each passing day. The school is not doing themselves any favors here.

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2020, 12:53:19 PM »
Basically my point over here
It is not the responsibility of the rosh hamosad or the board to keep the school in existence but rather the resposibility of the parents/community. Are some expenses lower? Likely. They are not using just about all of the items you mentioned such asBut on the other hand, they can also be losing out on a significant amount of fundraising such as if they have a simcha hall etc.

The rabbeim all still need to be able to feed theor families. That too is the responsibility of the parents and not the administration.

I am not so sure that it all schools will be able to take advantage of all of the programs out there. Does all compensation make the school eligible for these grants or is it only payroll? Are they all under 500 employees? A school with a number of parallel classes can start getting close once you include support staff.
the COMMUNITY, NOT THE PARENTS.
Similar to the full tuition/scholarship issue. Full tuition is really those with school aged kids subsidizing the cost of those that can't afford to pay what it costs to educate their children. The responsibility to give every kid a chance to get a Jewish education is on the community as a whole, not just those with school aged kids. Hence why the current system ticks off those with a few kids that are paying full, [and not getting a tax receipt].

IMHO, the current COVID-19 situation is the same. Why should parents keep paying their regular payments, when the schools operating costs are obviously less?   This is forced fundraising.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2020, 12:55:15 PM »
The schools will eventually reopen and may not be thrilled to take back children who's parents stopped paying tuition....

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #85 on: April 01, 2020, 12:57:06 PM »
the COMMUNITY, NOT THE PARENTS.
Similar to the full tuition/scholarship issue. Full tuition is really those with school aged kids subsidizing the cost of those that can't afford to pay what it costs to educate their children. The responsibility to give every kid a chance to get a Jewish education is on the community as a whole, not just those with school aged kids. Hence why the current system ticks off those with a few kids that are paying full, [and not getting a tax receipt].

IMHO, the current COVID-19 situation is the same. Why should parents keep paying their regular payments, when the schools operating costs are obviously less?   This is forced fundraising.

That is great when there is a community school (a school of a chassidus would presumably be included), but what about a community which has numerous schools?
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2020, 01:07:01 PM »
There are really 2 issues here:
1- The schools operating costs are obviously significantly less, (food, utilities, etc), why should any parent continue to make the same payment?
2- "My daughters school told me that since they expected a deficit this year they are continuing to charge tuition. And they will just need to fundraise less..."  AKA we admit we shouldn't be charging you the same tuition but we are anyway. Or a school saying "we can't fundraise as well from our regular donors so we're just going to charge tuition when we shouldn't be".

Offline neveryou

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2020, 01:07:01 PM »
Seems to me, that the beis din that said to pay full tuition is in denial about the whole situation or the schools have them in their back pocket

Offline AsherO

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2020, 01:11:42 PM »
The schools will eventually reopen and may not be thrilled to take back children who's parents stopped paying tuition....

Then hopefully those parents are a majority and the schools could reopen with 10% of their previous numbers.
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2020, 01:14:56 PM »
Then hopefully those parents are a majority and the schools could reopen with 10% of their previous numbers.
And the rest of the 90% will happily continue homeschooling their brood

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #90 on: April 01, 2020, 01:22:26 PM »
There are really 2 issues here:
1- The schools operating costs are obviously significantly less, (food, utilities, etc), why should any parent continue to make the same payment?
2- "My daughters school told me that since they expected a deficit this year they are continuing to charge tuition. And they will just need to fundraise less..." because it is really your responsibility anyhow and not the fundraiser's.  Or a school saying "we can't fundraise as well from our regular donors so we're just going to charge tuition that we really should be charging anyhow".

FTFY
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2020, 01:22:51 PM »
Seems to me, that the beis din that said to pay full tuition is in denial about the whole situation or the schools have them in their back pocket
On what basis are you saying this?
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2020, 01:23:36 PM »

Headlines podcast. The Dayan from the bĒd does not sound completely sure about mortgage payments either.
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Offline Yammer

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2020, 02:00:10 PM »


With all due respect, this does not answer any real questions.

First, in the times of the RAMA a parent would privately hire a melamed and pay him directly. It doesn't work that way today. If you have a class of 25 children and each child is paying $10,000 for tuition, the teacher is NOT getting paid $250K per year. Yeshivos operate on a commercial scale. Only a fraction of tuition a parent pays actually goes to the teachers. The rest goes to maintenance, food, administration etc. Essentially if we are going strictly by the RAMA, we should only be paying 1/5 of the tuition which is what the teacher gets paid.

Payroll is by far the biggest expense. There is no way that it only adds up to 1/5

I know everybodyís situation is different.
The way I feel for me...
I have three boys, 9,7,4.
The 9&7 year old in elementary school are busy most of the day with online learning. I know their teachers and Rabbis are working hard. Iím ok paying.

My 4 year old in pre-k... we get like a 5 min WhatsApp video a week. For April Iím ok paying as tzedakah so the morahs have money for Pesach. I know there are loans and grants, but itís not going to come on time. Should they refund for meals and other not used overhead expenses? Absolutely

For May and June... if thereís no school... no way Iím paying. If I have to cancel the checks I will. Especially since by then they should have taken as advantage of the programs. If not.... itís on them.

I know everyone situation is different. I already had April budgeted. Going further anything can change.

My 4 yr old has an update once a week
First grade has pre-recorded פסח songs + a daily update on what עברי page to say for the next 2 days..

The older ones max 30-45 min recordings.

Schools should listen to Dayanim. All other emotional arguments should be used to try to get donations. The Baltimore beis din claims that they can charge full tuition, while r Shlome Miller claims a peshara excluding mortgage payments. Ami magazine also had an article from a beis din for a peshara.

All kind of emotional arguments, are not a right to charge tuition. In times like this when everyone needs zechusim, schools should not be charging tuition without an absolute heter, otherwise it is geneiva.

In today's day and age there are rarely strict halacha pasks.

My 9 year old is getting 45 minutes a day with his Rebbi. I get angrier about this with each passing day. The school is not doing themselves any favors here.

This is what I'm thinking.... They are ruining for themselves. The Rebbe/Teacher will be way more upset if they don't get paid vs putting in more effort if needed.

Offline Yonah

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2020, 02:33:32 PM »
As usual late to the party. I am in a very different boat - my 3 kids  in 12th, 10th, and 6th grade have close to a full day of school online every day. Both of my kids schools also have 'extra-curricular' online events ranging from things like - 'cooking with the morahs' to bringing in physical and mental health professionals to talk about Corona, parenting, etc. As well as shiurim.

Clearly this is by design - obviously to keep families engaged and make them feel that they're connected. Both schools have both reached out via e-mail (and the elementary school by phone) to see how we were doing and to let us know that they would help us if we became financially strapped and couldn't make payments.


This is also a huge contrast from both my friends with younger kids - who clearly don't have the zitsfleisch for this type of learning, and/or parents from kids of similar ages in more yeshivish environments (I am MO) where not everyone has Internet, and they're having conference calls and learning packets.

From being involved in some local mosdos, it seems that "Payroll" is the biggest expense for the vast majority of schools, but Payroll isn't just teachers salaries, but a whole host of other things that go with it. Healthcare, for example is HUGE. Assuming the plans offered to teachers are similar to plans offered by other employers - you have to figure that the average cost needs to be in the $20k/year range for most teachers (someone with better knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong). Yes, It's offset by single teachers, teachers with no children at home, and/or who use their spouse's insurance - but still.

Are we now going to require every Yeshiva to fire all of their teachers and make them go on cobra paid by the money they're not making? (Yes, I know that this is complicated, but that's what I see).

At the same time - I would definitely like to see some money back for Transportation, and food - this is easier to do if they're being broken out separately. 




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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2020, 02:40:49 PM »
As usual late to the party. I am in a very different boat - my 3 kids  in 12th, 10th, and 6th grade have close to a full day of school online every day. Both of my kids schools also have 'extra-curricular' online events ranging from things like - 'cooking with the morahs' to bringing in physical and mental health professionals to talk about Corona, parenting, etc. As well as shiurim.

Clearly this is by design - obviously to keep families engaged and make them feel that they're connected. Both schools have both reached out via e-mail (and the elementary school by phone) to see how we were doing and to let us know that they would help us if we became financially strapped and couldn't make payments.

I have a feeling that if every school was doing this, we'd be having a very different conversation. Kudos to your schools!
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #96 on: April 01, 2020, 02:58:04 PM »
I have a feeling that if every school was doing this, we'd be having a very different conversation. Kudos to your schools!
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #97 on: April 01, 2020, 03:11:11 PM »
I have a feeling that if every school was doing this, we'd be having a very different conversation. Kudos to your schools!

One thing to keep in mind is that many of these are not an option for some schools which are unable to use video conferencing.
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2020, 03:18:50 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that many of these are not an option for some schools which are unable to use video conferencing.
...This is also a huge contrast from both my friends with younger kids - who clearly don't have the zitsfleisch for this type of learning, and/or parents from kids of similar ages in more yeshivish environments (I am MO) where not everyone has Internet, and they're having conference calls and learning packets...

Yes - this is a huge problem and complicates the situation a bit more - because the level of perceived value doesn't come close. For me the biggest problem here is that the kids aren't learning. While I understand the parents desire get their hard-earned money back, I can't imagine how they'd use it to educate their kids in the schools absence.

Offline AsherO

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2020, 03:27:31 PM »
As usual late to the party. I am in a very different boat - my 3 kids  in 12th, 10th, and 6th grade have close to a full day of school online every day. Both of my kids schools also have 'extra-curricular' online events ranging from things like - 'cooking with the morahs' to bringing in physical and mental health professionals to talk about Corona, parenting, etc. As well as shiurim.

Clearly this is by design - obviously to keep families engaged and make them feel that they're connected. Both schools have both reached out via e-mail (and the elementary school by phone) to see how we were doing and to let us know that they would help us if we became financially strapped and couldn't make payments.


This is also a huge contrast from both my friends with younger kids - who clearly don't have the zitsfleisch for this type of learning, and/or parents from kids of similar ages in more yeshivish environments (I am MO) where not everyone has Internet, and they're having conference calls and learning packets.

From being involved in some local mosdos, it seems that "Payroll" is the biggest expense for the vast majority of schools, but Payroll isn't just teachers salaries, but a whole host of other things that go with it. Healthcare, for example is HUGE. Assuming the plans offered to teachers are similar to plans offered by other employers - you have to figure that the average cost needs to be in the $20k/year range for most teachers (someone with better knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong). Yes, It's offset by single teachers, teachers with no children at home, and/or who use their spouse's insurance - but still.

Are we now going to require every Yeshiva to fire all of their teachers and make them go on cobra paid by the money they're not making? (Yes, I know that this is complicated, but that's what I see).

At the same time - I would definitely like to see some money back for Transportation, and food - this is easier to do if they're being broken out separately. 

If my kidsí school did this Iíd rush to pay them ASAP and would have nothing to post about here.

Instead they googled for some Pesach themed graphics and suggested parents print them out at home (who with young children has a color printer at home anyway?) so their children could ďmake HagaddahsĒ....
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