How should schools and parents deal with tuition?

[zale]

Am I the only one here that thinks that the schools should be the ones consulting with rabbanim and proactively reaching out to parents? Why are they all playing ignorant? What gives them the right to continue charging full tuition when they can't provide the services that were agreed upon?

This is the calm before the storm. I'm calling this now.

[A3]

tbh I didn’t read this entire thread before posting.

Are schools being transparent about what their expenses are like now with Corona compared to before? If they’re not going to end up paying rent, not feeding my kids, and paying only the main teacher for each class to do a video session for an hour a day, why am I getting charged full tuition?

It hurts extra that DW is an assistant in the school, they obviously pay her peanuts and her part-time salary covers only half the tuition. They aren’t paying her a penny now, but they’re asking for full tuition to be paid “so they can pay the teachers before Pesach”. I call bluff.

Open your books and we’ll see what’s what.

Look up the 990

[yesitsme]

there is a psak from the bais havaad, cant upload file too large

[good sam]

I'm happy to keep paying so long as I'm able but only to cover salaries, not to make up deficits or mitigate fundraising requirements.

More importantly, I want a refund on my school property taxes.

[zale]

there is a psak from the bais havaad, cant upload file too large

This only covers playgroups.

[S209]

non-profit. It's the first exclusion when applying for unemployment.

This likely has changed, look into it

[AsherO]

This only covers playgroups.

Correct. The first paragraph of the guidelines is pretty clear about this stating that it certainly does not apply to schools.

[AsherO]

Look up the 990

How would the 990 from previous years tell me what their expenses were a month ago vs. today?

[A3]

How would the 990 from previous years tell me what their expenses were a month ago vs. today?

It can give you an overall look at the financials. In addition to payroll, what other loan obligations are there. What do you need to stay afloat.

[neveryou]

I think this will be the straw that broke the camel's back with regards to schools and their tuition

[ltttc]

With all due respect, this does not answer any real questions.

First, in the times of the RAMA a parent would privately hire a melamed and pay him directly. It doesn't work that way today. If you have a class of 25 children and each child is paying $10,000 for tuition, the teacher is NOT getting paid $250K per year. Yeshivos operate on a commercial scale. Only a fraction of tuition a parent pays actually goes to the teachers. The rest goes to maintenance, food, administration etc. Essentially if we are going strictly by the RAMA, we should only be paying 1/5 of the tuition which is what the teacher gets paid.

Who is supposed to be paying for the mortgage/rent?? Utilities? Taxes? Insurance? Maintenance? Supplies? Etc etc etc Everything- from the copies to the printer to the cleaning staff and supplies cost $$$.
Mosdos struggle in the best of times, how are they supposed to manage now? Tuition does not cover the cost of what it takes to get your child through the year - A fact I hear from many administrators. -(Feel free to verify for yourself)
Schools are a non-profit entity and that is because most work on a loss! They do it with mesiras nefesh for your children and mine and e/o else's.
I don't know what the solution is but I'm just showing that there's another side and it is a very complicated situation.
For now, I am continuing with my tuition payments.

[A3]

I know everybody’s situation is different.
The way I feel for me...
I have three boys, 9,7,4.
The 9&7 year old in elementary school are busy most of the day with online learning. I know their teachers and Rabbis are working hard. I’m ok paying.

My 4 year old in pre-k... we get like a 5 min WhatsApp video a week. For April I’m ok paying as tzedakah so the morahs have money for Pesach. I know there are loans and grants, but it’s not going to come on time. Should they refund for meals and other not used overhead expenses? Absolutely

For May and June... if there’s no school... no way I’m paying. If I have to cancel the checks I will. Especially since by then they should have taken as advantage of the programs. If not.... it’s on them.

I know everyone situation is different. I already had April budgeted. Going further anything can change.

[SamCan]

Schools should listen to Dayanim. All other emotional arguments should be used to try to get donations. The Baltimore beis din claims that they can charge full tuition, while r Shlome Miller claims a peshara excluding mortgage payments. Ami magazine also had an article from a beis din for a peshara.

All kind of emotional arguments, are not a right to charge tuition. In times like this when everyone needs zechusim, schools should not be charging tuition without an absolute heter, otherwise it is geneiva.

[aygart]

Who is supposed to be paying for the mortgage/rent?? Utilities? Taxes? Insurance? Maintenance? Supplies? Etc etc etc Everything- from the copies to the printer to the cleaning staff and supplies cost $$$.
Mosdos struggle in the best of times, how are they supposed to manage now? Tuition does not cover the cost of what it takes to get your child through the year - A fact I hear from many administrators. -(Feel free to verify for yourself)
Schools are a non-profit entity and that is because most work on a loss! They do it with mesiras nefesh for your children and mine and e/o else's.
I don't know what the solution is but I'm just showing that there's another side and it is a very complicated situation.
For now, I am continuing with my tuition payments.

Basically my point over here

Whose burden should it be if not the parents?

Parents should pay for what is needed for the chinuch of their children. How that is a very good question but you still haven't answered whose responsibility it should be if not the parents.

It is not the responsibility of the rosh hamosad or the board to keep the school in existence but rather the resposibility of the parents/community. Are some expenses lower? Likely. They are not using just about all of the items you mentioned such as

Utilities?  Maintenance? Supplies? Etc etc etc Everything- from the copies to the printer to the cleaning staff and supplies cost $$$.

But on the other hand, they can also be losing out on a significant amount of fundraising such as if they have a simcha hall etc.

The rabbeim all still need to be able to feed theor families. That too is the responsibility of the parents and not the administration.

I am not so sure that it all schools will be able to take advantage of all of the programs out there. Does all compensation make the school eligible for these grants or is it only payroll? Are they all under 500 employees? A school with a number of parallel classes can start getting close once you include support staff.

[ltttc]

Schools should listen to Dayanim. All other emotional arguments should be used to try to get donations. The Baltimore beis din claims that they can charge full tuition, while r Shlome Miller claims a peshara excluding mortgage payments. Ami magazine also had an article from a beis din for a peshara.

All kind of emotional arguments, are not a right to charge tuition. In times like this when everyone needs zechusim, schools should not be charging tuition without an absolute heter, otherwise it is geneiva.

Fair enough, but then perhaps this thread is in the wrong forum to begin with. AFAIK this isn't a rabbinical forum (although many seem to believe it is)

[aygart]

r Shlome Miller claims a peshara excluding mortgage payments. Ami magazine also had an article from a beis din for a peshara.

Source? Link/image?

[yelped]

AFAIK this isn't a rabbinical forum (although many seem to believe it is)

Source? 

[SamCan]

Source? Link/image?

Headlines podcast. The Dayan from the b”d does not sound completely sure about mortgage payments either.

[good sam]

A good solution for many would be to continue to pay tuition but from maaser money. This was my Rov's suggestion, check with YLOR.

[AsherO]

The rabbeim all still need to be able to feed theor families. That too is the responsibility of the parents and not the administration.

Can I pay the teachers directly and get a tuition credit from the school?