How should schools and parents deal with tuition?

[knowitall]

I don’t have any school aged kids but kudos to those schools being proactive and reaching out to parents regarding tuition. And shame on the rest of schools that are still charging credit cards and cashing head checks. Yes you can make emotional arguments why it’s “right” but similar to Ben Shapiro- Halacha doesn’t care about your feelings.

[aygart]

I don’t have any school aged kids but kudos to those schools being proactive and reaching out to parents regarding tuition. And shame on the rest of schools that are still charging credit cards and cashing head checks. Yes you can make emotional arguments why it’s “right” but similar to Ben Shapiro- Halacha doesn’t care about your feelings.

Why are you assuming that the halacha is not on their side? The Baltimore BD seems to feel it is.
ETA: Oh right, you for some reason decided that they don't know what they are talking about.

[knowitall]

Why are you assuming that the halacha is not on their side? The Baltimore BD seems to feel it is.
ETA: Oh right, you for some reason decided that they don't know what they are talking about.

maybe you should consider going back to school. Read paragraph #2 in their letter.

[aygart]

maybe you should consider going back to school. Read paragraph #2 in their letter.

If there is a specific program which would be a part of tuition that they are not providing then let us know. The existence of any such program remains to be shown. Note that not every program (a great example is the lunch program in some jurisdictions) is paid for by tuition. Some are paid for by government funding etc.

So now you feel that they do know what they are talking about? Or are they not the one you were referring to over here?

Seems to me, that the beis din that said to pay full tuition is in denial about the whole situation or the schools have them in their back pocket

[knowitall]

If there is a specific program which would be a part of tuition that they are not providing then let us know. The existence of any such program remains to be shown. Note that not every program (a great example is the lunch program in some jurisdictions) is paid for by tuition. Some are paid for by government funding etc.

So now you feel that they do know what they are talking about? Or are they not the one you were referring to over here?

All right, utilities. You think they’re still heating and lighting the entire building?

[aygart]

All right, utilities. You think they’re still heating and lighting the entire building?

That is not a program which they are not providing. That is an expense which they are not incurring.
ETA: as an aside, what they pay for utilities when they don't use as much is very dependent on their exact tariff/contract/rate structure and will change if they have solar as well depending on how that is structured.

[SamCan]

Does Baltimore beis din psak apply to the entire world? It clearly has the words “for our community “. Baltimore schools can charge, all other schools need their local beis din to pasken.

[aygart]

Does Baltimore beis din psak apply to the entire world? It clearly has the words “for our community “. Baltimore schools can charge, all other schools need their local beis din to pasken.

It is specific to Baltimore.

[moko]

My 9 year old is getting about 3.5 hours a day Zoom classes limudei kodesh and chol  with the works. breakout room sessions, online testing, homework etc.
My 5 year old has about 2 hours a day Zoom video limudei kodesh and chol. also complete with doing the prearranged projects, parsha, hagada etc as a class.
School has put a lot of effort into the setup. Students will be behind minimally (if at all) when returning to school.
My wife does her playgroup on Zoom for at least an hour daily and all the children (besides my 3 year old) are there.

I am happy to do my part to ensure my children's chinuch continues.
Also, the structure is amazing. We'd be lost without it.

[Sammy82]

If I recall correctly, one thing mentioned by one of the rabbonim on Headlines said something along the lines that if one does withhold payment (according to what the local BD paskened), the school has every right to deny entry next year. Hope you have another school ready to take your kids in (unless u enjoyed homeschooling  )

[zale]

If I recall correctly, one thing mentioned by one of the rabbonim on Headlines said something along the lines that if one does withhold payment (according to what the local BD paskened), the school has every right to deny entry next year. Hope you have another school ready to take your kids in (unless u enjoyed homeschooling  )

I had a good laugh at this. Let’s see them threaten the majority of the parent-body of the school.

Like the virus, many Rabbanim and schools are in denial about the deluge that’s about to happen with tuition.

You see, most parents are too overwhelmed right now with what’s going on and with Pesach. Once Pesach ends and the reality of the Corona havoc sets in, calls will start pouring in. I can see most parents agreeing to pay some tuition, but they will want a significant discount. Some might demand a full refund or credit for next year.

I also don’t think the Rabbanim who said that the school can threaten not allowing students back took into account the legal ramifications of making such a threat, as it is a form of blackmail.

[yos9694]

Tuition has never been about being fair. The model is to charge triple for each child with the understanding that those who can't come up with that much will negotiate down. Anyone who is unable to prove a shortfall or is unwilling to go through the audit process gets stuck with the inflated retail price.

This situation is no different. The "halachik" ruling is already predetermined (parents must pay) and the only thing in question is how to write the brief that interprets halachik sources to defend that foregone conclusion. Then, the parents who are able to prove they cannot pay and are willing to open up their books will be let off the hook on an individual basis.

One last thing- the stimulus bill potentially grants a lot of money to yeshivos as forgivable loans to sustain payroll (assuming they wont fire staff). If/when yeshivos get this money I doubt even the most creative poskim could find justification for double dipping.

[knowitall]

Tuition has never been about being fair. The model is to charge triple for each child with the understanding that those who can't come up with that much will negotiate down. Anyone who is unable to prove a shortfall or is unwilling to go through the audit process gets stuck with the inflated retail price.

This situation is no different. The "halachik" ruling is already predetermined (parents must pay) and the only thing in question is how to write the brief that interprets halachik sources to defend that foregone conclusion. Then, the parents who are able to prove they cannot pay and are willing to open up their books will be let off the hook on an individual basis.

One last thing- the stimulus bill potentially grants a lot of money to yeshivos as forgivable loans to sustain payroll (assuming they wont fire staff). If/when yeshivos get this money I doubt even the most creative poskim could find justification for double dipping.

IINM the stimulus bill only grants $10,000 as forgivable. The rest must be paid back, at relatively low interest.

[mme]

IINM the stimulus bill only grants $10,000 as forgivable. The rest must be paid back, at relatively low interest.

then there is the ppp program that gives bigger loans

[knowitall]

then there is the ppp program that gives bigger loans

That don’t need to be paid back?

[aygart]

That don’t need to be paid back?

If qualified

[yos9694]

That don’t need to be paid back?

The loans are forgivable if they don't lay off their staff. I don't think there's a yeshiva in the world that even knows how to do layoffs, so they'll all likely be forgiven.

[Dan]

If I recall correctly, one thing mentioned by one of the rabbonim on Headlines said something along the lines that if one does withhold payment (according to what the local BD paskened), the school has every right to deny entry next year. Hope you have another school ready to take your kids in (unless u enjoyed homeschooling  )

So you think there will be school next year

[Sammy82]

I had a good laugh at this. Let’s see them threaten the majority of the parent-body of the school.

Like the virus, many Rabbanim and schools are in denial about the deluge that’s about to happen with tuition.

You see, most parents are too overwhelmed right now with what’s going on and with Pesach. Once Pesach ends and the reality of the Corona havoc sets in, calls will start pouring in. I can see most parents agreeing to pay some tuition, but they will want a significant discount. Some might demand a full refund or credit for next year.

I also don’t think the Rabbanim who said that the school can threaten not allowing students back took into account the legal ramifications of making such a threat, as it is a form of blackmail.

1) I was just repeating what I heard
2) he didn't say threaten them. He said they have a halachic right to not take them back. Don't know why it's any different then not renewing any contract when u feel the other party owes u money. Something wrong with that?
3) not so sure majority of parents think the way u are thinking. I planned on paying the full amount (actually for whatever reason, it's already paid so there's even less of a reason to think I'll be able to recover it, even of I wanted to). I know many other people that for a variety of reasons  plan on accepting whatever the local pasak is. Granted, I'm in a situation where thankfully I still have a job and income. And that my wife works for a local school and thus far have been paying like regular so in a way I'm nogeah bedavar on the other side. But many people are in fact are losing/lost their income and I'm sure are struggling so I could def see how this could be a bigger issue for them financially.

[zale]

he didn't say threaten them. He said they have a halachic right to not take them back. Don't know why it's any different then not renewing any contract when u feel the other party owes u money. Something wrong with that?

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

"You'd better not ask for (some) money back for services we are not providing, or you will not be allowed into school next year".