How should schools and parents deal with tuition?

[Sammy82]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

"You'd better not ask for (some) money back for services we are not providing, or you will not be allowed into school next year".

did you listen to the show? Def seems like u didn't. So first listen and then comment. There was a question asked and he answered all pi halacha. The show is a halacha shiur, not a advice or American legal system show. https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cDovL3BvZGNhc3QuaGVhZGxpbmVzYm9vay5jb20vZmVlZC8&episode=aGVhZGxpbmVzYm9vay5wb2RiZWFuLmNvbS81YjFjMDA3Yi00YzU3LTU5NzQtYWMzYi0xNTRmNDFiMjhmMzc

[Shmobaum]

My 9 year old is getting about 3.5 hours a day Zoom classes limudei kodesh and chol  with the works. breakout room sessions, online testing, homework etc.
My 5 year old has about 2 hours a day Zoom video limudei kodesh and chol. also complete with doing the prearranged projects, parsha, hagada etc as a class.
School has put a lot of effort into the setup. Students will be behind minimally (if at all) when returning to school.
My wife does her playgroup on Zoom for at least an hour daily and all the children (besides my 3 year old) are there.

I am happy to do my part to ensure my children's chinuch continues.
Also, the structure is amazing. We'd be lost without it.

My daughter has a phone conference for 4-5 minutes a day... should I pay $410 this month?!?!?

[S209]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

"You'd better not ask for (some) money back for services we are not providing, or you will not be allowed into school next year".

-1

“You’d better pay for the goods and services we are in contract for or we will refuse to continue to do business with you”.

I agree with your overall sentiment, but that’s not blackmail. That’s business.

[aygart]

My daughter has a phone conference for 4-5 minutes a day... should I pay $410 this month?!?!?

Maybe someone should listen in with her one day.

[Shmobaum]

Maybe someone should listen in with her one day.

Lol! I do that daily. Should I pm you the hotline number?

[12HRS]

On the other side of things if this daddy day care lasts much longer I would be willing to pay much more next year for my sanity back 

[ExGingi]

On the other side of things if this daddy day care lasts much longer I would be willing to pay much more next year for my sanity back 

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

[skyguy918]

I'm torn with this whole question. B'H my family's financial situation hasn't changed at all - anyone in that boat has a whole separate and more serious question going. But even for those like me, if you're not getting much service from the school, it's a hard pill to swallow. Ultimately we're planning on paying everything in full for my kids (3rd, 1st, and nursery), including the babysitter (for our 1 year old) who got nearly 2 weeks paid when we had to send her away due to my wife testing positive. While I do wish their schools would do more, there really is a limit to what can be done with the younger kids, and with rebbeim and morahs that are not as tech savvy as in some other places. And even where more can be done, it doesn't always help that much if the kid can't be fully independent in the activities, like having to help call-in/dial-in, print and set up school sheets, etc. My son's nursery has been sending videos via WA - but we can't just hand him our phones and leave him, he needs a fair amount of supervision.

[skyguy918]

The school's revenue model has always been to get as much as they can from those who have the means to pay in order to compensate for those who don't have the means. You can be sure that the people who have seen their financial situation change have reduced or eliminated their tuition payments already, leaving the school with an even smaller base to leverage for their payroll. It's not about paying for services rendered, it's about making payroll to their teachers and administrators who would also like to keep their financial situation at the pre-crisis level.

You're not breaking any new ground with this - we're all well aware of how yeshivos operate financially. That's not the point. How they arrive at each person's ultimate financial obligation is irrelevant. Once you're paying x amount every year (or even just that you agreed on x for this year), nobody wants to keep paying that amount and get little out of it. It's a very different situation than the normal 'redistribution' of the burden. You want to tell me that next year tuitions will go up in order to compensate for a lower percentage of full tuition parents - I understand that. But it doesn't lessen the impact of having agreed on an amount for receiving one thing, and then receiving a lot less.

[yos9694]

You're not breaking any new ground with this - we're all well aware of how yeshivos operate financially. That's not the point. How they arrive at each person's ultimate financial obligation is irrelevant. Once you're paying x amount every year (or even just that you agreed on x for this year), nobody wants to keep paying that amount and get little out of it. It's a very different situation than the normal 'redistribution' of the burden. You want to tell me that next year tuitions will go up in order to compensate for a lower percentage of full tuition parents - I understand that. But it doesn't lessen the impact of having agreed on an amount for receiving one thing, and then receiving a lot less.

I know it's not news to anyone. But apply the same mindset that says in a normal year says you get 1 tuition for the price of 3 kids (yours+2 that you have to subsidize) to the current situation. The school isn't used to providing a value proposition for your money, they just take what they can.  I'm fully on your side though- the right way to look at this is that the school isn't fulfilling their side of the agreement so you want your money back (like a pesach program).

[knowitall]

Can someone please explain the HALACHIC argument that tuition should continue to be paid as agreed while schools are providing a fraction of pre-COVID 19 levels?

I understand the “emotional”/feel bad for teachers/how else can mosdos continue to operate argument.

Is it all based on the chasam sofers psak in his situation?

[ltttc]

Did you sign a contract in the beginning of the year?

[knowitall]

Did you sign a contract in the beginning of the year?

I don't have any school aged kids.

[aygart]

Can someone please explain the HALACHIC argument that tuition should continue to be paid as agreed while schools are providing a fraction of pre-COVID 19 levels?

I understand the “emotional”/feel bad for teachers/how else can mosdos continue to operate argument.

Is it all based on the chasam sofers psak in his situation?

The first question is if tuition is something which is fee-for-service. I don't thing that is clear.

The letter from the Baltimore BD is pretty clear that it is a 2-step process. The schools are paying the staff based on RMA and Chasam Sofer. Therefore the parents are obligated to pay the school minus any programs they are not recieving and any staff not being paid (an important one for @AsherO )

I don't have any school aged kids.

Not sure what your agenda here is.

[yos9694]

Can someone please explain the HALACHIC argument that tuition should continue to be paid as agreed while schools are providing a fraction of pre-COVID 19 levels?

I understand the “emotional”/feel bad for teachers/how else can mosdos continue to operate argument.

Is it all based on the chasam sofers psak in his situation?

The halachik arguments will be written to validate the emotional ones. As we speak, they're being researched. The Baltimore one has holes in it so be on the lookout for what other lamdonim cook up.

[SamCan]

Basic Halacha is as follows
According to the rema they can charge almost all tuition and have to pay the teachers.
According to the gra and others they can not charge anything and don't have to pay teachers.
According to the Chasam Sofer they should make a peshara

The other consideration is, Are school's a business that we had an agreement with, or if it’s something we all have some ownership in and the administrators are making the decisions for us.

Now it’s up to every beis din to decide.

[AsherO]

Basic Halacha is as follows
According to the rema they can charge almost all tuition and have to pay the teachers.
According to the gra and others they can not charge anything and don't have to pay teachers.
According to the Chasam Sofer they should make a peshara

None of those three call for parents paying 100%. I guess the school is just making the first move and making 100% the starting point for any negotiation.

[SamCan]

None of those three call for parents paying 100%. I guess the school is just making the first move and making 100% the starting point for any negotiation.

Baltimore beis din paskened like the rema for their city, and even according to them if there are any expenses that are less due to no school some of the tuition should be refunded.

What happened on April 1 was from the largest geneives in our history, taking someone else’s money without a heter from beis din is assur.

[Yonah]

...

What happened on April 1 was from the largest geneives in our history, taking someone else’s money without a heter from beis din is assur.

Taking someone's money without permission is also illegal - but that's not really the case here. When you agreed to pay them for the year, you gave them the permission to take it from you in monthly installments. If you want to make the argument that you pay for each month for the services rendered - that's not the case, otherwise you should pay a lot less for Tishrei and Nissan than you do for Cheshvan and Shvat.

L'Havdil
- If you have a subscription with a Gym, they have the right to keep charging you until you call and make an arrangement to stop.
- If you have a subscription with a newspaper, and it doesn't get delivered one day, you need to call up and ask for credit.
- If you have a flight booked on an airline, you need to call and make arrangements  - if it flies without you cancelling, you still owe them money.

In any of these cases, each business will fight you to keep the money you had previously paid them. So why should a Yeshiva be any different?

[SamCan]

Taking someone's money without permission is also illegal - but that's not really the case here. When you agreed to pay them for the year, you gave them the permission to take it from you in monthly installments. If you want to make the argument that you pay for each month for the services rendered - that's not the case, otherwise you should pay a lot less for Tishrei and Nissan than you do for Cheshvan and Shvat.

L'Havdil
- If you have a subscription with a Gym, they have the right to keep charging you until you call and make an arrangement to stop.
- If you have a subscription with a newspaper, and it doesn't get delivered one day, you need to call up and ask for credit.
- If you have a flight booked on an airline, you need to call and make arrangements  - if it flies without you cancelling, you still owe them money.

In any of these cases, each business will fight you to keep the money you had previously paid them. So why should a Yeshiva be any different?

I am not sure about legal issues, however according to all rabbanim the school is not the mechzuk (unless they were paid upfront for the year). "Others are doing it" is not a heter to take money this isn't theirs.  i'm not saying that the schools don't have a case. All i am saying is that until they have a heter by a local beis din ,they are not allowed to charge.