How should schools and parents deal with tuition?

[aygart]

I am not sure about legal issues, however according to all rabbanim the school is not the mechzuk (unless they were paid upfront for the year). "Others are doing it" is not a heter to take money this isn't theirs.  i'm not saying that the schools don't have a case. All i am saying is that until they have a heter by a local beis din ,they are not allowed to charge.

Who are these "all rabbonim"? Why do they need a pre-emptive psak bais din and not simply to ask their rabbinic advisor?

[Yonah]

I am not sure about legal issues, however according to all rabbanim the school is not the mechzuk (unless they were paid upfront for the year). "Others are doing it" is not a heter to take money this isn't theirs.  i'm not saying that the schools don't have a case. All i am saying is that until they have a heter by a local beis din ,they are not allowed to charge.

Clearly it's not "All Rabbanim" - I imagine the Rabbanim advising the yeshivos to continue processing payment would disagree with your statement.

I can't speak for other schools, but I know from the contracts I've signed in both the Yeshivish World and the MO world, your tuition is an Annual fee, and the wording is something along the lines of:

"Tuition for grade X is Y per year. By signing, you accept responsibility to pay this amount. You can pay Y up front before the school year, or you can pay Z per month with post-dated checks or using our payment system".

So there is a shtar, where you accepted responsibility for the full amount + whatever tnaim are in the contract. I would have to think that when yeshivas draw those up, they consult both Rabbonim and a lawyer.

Again, I'm basing on my experience, but yours might be different.

[SamCan]

The article in the ami magazine and the Dayan on the headlines podcast all said they are not mechzuk, and the Baltimore beis din didn’t say otherwise, if you know of a Ruv or beis din that said they are mechzuk please list them.

Regarding the contract that was signed, it’s possible that that gives them the right to charge,  I’m not a Dayan, and the schools are not either.

I’m not so sure schools asked their rabbinic authority, and if yes the smart thing would be to publicly say so.

[zale]

Basic Halacha is as follows
According to the rema they can charge almost all tuition and have to pay the teachers.

I mentioned a few times that this needs to be qualified in today's day and age. We don't pay melamdim directly as was the case back then. We pay into a fund, and about a 5th of that goes to the melamed, with the rest covering building and administrative expenses.

[SamCan]

I mentioned a few times that this needs to be qualified in today's day and age. We don't pay melamdim directly as was the case back then. We pay into a fund, and about a 5th of that goes to the melamed, with the rest covering building and administrative expenses.

That’s why I wrote “basic Halacha“  its up to Dayanim to determine if it applies today.

[yos9694]

That’s why I wrote “basic Halacha“  its up to Dayanim to determine if it applies today.

Not going to be possible to do. Figure out which side the negios lies on.

[knowitall]

What happened on April 1 was from the largest geneives in our history, taking someone else’s money without a heter from beis din is assur.

You’re prob right, though for the most part the parents and the schools are on the same team-with the common goal of educating their kids. I’m sure there are some parents that are upset but afraid to open their mouths.

[lubaby]

Taking someone's money without permission is also illegal - but that's not really the case here. When you agreed to pay them for the year, you gave them the permission to take it from you in monthly installments. If you want to make the argument that you pay for each month for the services rendered - that's not the case, otherwise you should pay a lot less for Tishrei and Nissan than you do for Cheshvan and Shvat.

Clearly it's not "All Rabbanim" - I imagine the Rabbanim advising the yeshivos to continue processing payment would disagree with your statement.

I can't speak for other schools, but I know from the contracts I've signed in both the Yeshivish World and the MO world, your tuition is an Annual fee, and the wording is something along the lines of:

"Tuition for grade X is Y per year. By signing, you accept responsibility to pay this amount. You can pay Y up front before the school year, or you can pay Z per month with post-dated checks or using our payment system".

So there is a shtar, where you accepted responsibility for the full amount + whatever tnaim are in the contract. I would have to think that when yeshivas draw those up, they consult both Rabbonim and a lawyer.

Again, I'm basing on my experience, but yours might be different.

Part of the X amount for full year is "this is our operation calendar that covers amount of days we are open and closed, with the allowance / exception that we may be closed for an extra few days if something like a major snowstorm type thing happens".

They count all the open days, assign daily cost / value = total for the year. Monthly installments is just splitting the bill.


Personally, my kids preschool (closed halfway through March) said:
A: We're keeping all tuition for March. We can provide tax deductible receipts for the associated weeks that school was closed since "goods not received".
B: We're not charging anything for April, until we know if / when we're reopening (if open for partial, will prorate those weeks).
C: Together with both of those, please whoever can, feel free to donate to us some / full / extra tuition to help support our teachers and staff during this trying time.

[JMHO]

Part of the X amount for full year is "this is our operation calendar that covers amount of days we are open and closed, with the allowance / exception that we may be closed for an extra few days if something like a major snowstorm type thing happens".

They count all the open days, assign daily cost / value = total for the year. Monthly installments is just splitting the bill.


Personally, my kids preschool (closed halfway through March) said:
A: We're keeping all tuition for March. We can provide tax deductible receipts for the associated weeks that school was closed since "goods not received".
B: We're not charging anything for April, until we know if / when we're reopening (if open for partial, will prorate those weeks).
C: Together with both of those, please whoever can, feel free to donate to us some / full / extra tuition to help support our teachers and staff during this trying time.

Kol Hakavod to your school for getting ahead of this and being open and communicative.

[beeweegee]

Part of the X amount for full year is "this is our operation calendar that covers amount of days we are open and closed, with the allowance / exception that we may be closed for an extra few days if something like a major snowstorm type thing happens".

They count all the open days, assign daily cost / value = total for the year. Monthly installments is just splitting the bill.


Personally, my kids preschool (closed halfway through March) said:
A: We're keeping all tuition for March. We can provide tax deductible receipts for the associated weeks that school was closed since "goods not received".
B: We're not charging anything for April, until we know if / when we're reopening (if open for partial, will prorate those weeks).
C: Together with both of those, please whoever can, feel free to donate to us some / full / extra tuition to help support our teachers and staff during this trying time.

Did they base it on a psak? And what type/size preschool is it?

[Yonah]

Part of the X amount for full year is "this is our operation calendar that covers amount of days we are open and closed, with the allowance / exception that we may be closed for an extra few days if something like a major snowstorm type thing happens".

They count all the open days, assign daily cost / value = total for the year. Monthly installments is just splitting the bill.

All good points - they also probably cover a contingency of some sort of virtual classes if the building can't be opened. I would also imagine that whatever 'variable' days there are in the schedule for weather-releated closures, those have probably been used by this point.

Personally, my kids preschool (closed halfway through March) said:
A: We're keeping all tuition for March. We can provide tax deductible receipts for the associated weeks that school was closed since "goods not received".
B: We're not charging anything for April, until we know if / when we're reopening (if open for partial, will prorate those weeks).
C: Together with both of those, please whoever can, feel free to donate to us some / full / extra tuition to help support our teachers and staff during this trying time.

Does this mean that all teachers are not being paid?

[ari3]

I received a letter from my daughters school asking if possible can I prepay tuition thru the end of the year so they can pay the teachers. (I already paid April, I often pay a few months at a time). I thought that was a backhanded way to make themselves a מוחזק for any financial שאלות that are sure to come up.

[12HRS]

I received a letter from my daughters school asking if possible can I prepay tuition thru the end of the year so they can pay the teachers. (I already paid April, I often pay a few months at a time). I thought that was a backhanded way to make themselves a מוחזק for any financial שאלות that are sure to come up.

or maybe they are really just trying to make ends meet? Thanks for the idea. I will be calling my school and offering that to them so they can pay their teachers for yom tov!

[moko]

Why aren't schools taking advantage of PPP ? This should be a no brainer for almost every school. The issue I'm struggling with at my organization, is the 2 month payroll comes right up to June when we furlough half our hourly employees every year for two months (college break). But if schools pay teachers salaries based on 12 months, then PPP is a no brainier...

[SamCan]

Why aren't schools taking advantage of PPP ? This should be a no brainer for almost every school. The issue I'm struggling with at my organization, is the 2 month payroll comes right up to June when we furlough half our hourly employees every year for two months (college break). But if schools pay teachers salaries based on 12 months, then PPP is a no brainier...

Many of them probably are, and will charge tuition anyway.

[yitzgar]

Many of them probably are, and will charge tuition anyway.

My child's school is getting ppp and said they will not cash checks

[ltttc]

Why aren't schools taking advantage of PPP ? This should be a no brainer for almost every school. The issue I'm struggling with at my organization, is the 2 month payroll comes right up to June when we furlough half our hourly employees every year for two months (college break). But if schools pay teachers salaries based on 12 months, then PPP is a no brainier...

PPP wont cover parsonage which is about 50% of payroll for many schools. In addition, they won't be getting it before 2 weeks at earliest. Can't pay teachers before y"t in that case.

[Mordyk]

PPP wont cover parsonage which is about 50% of payroll for many schools. In addition, they won't be getting it before 2 weeks at earliest. Can't pay teachers before y"t in that case.

Source?  This is a piece of information that i need adsp

[ltttc]

Source?  This is a piece of information that i need adsp

Ask your accountant. That's what my accountant told me. (I confirmed with Roth and Co)

[zh cohen]

Ask your accountant. That's what my accountant told me. (I confirmed with Roth and Co)

FWIU there is no official guidance on this yet. Some banks are including parsonage as Payroll for the loan amount calculation.