Author Topic: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?  (Read 77006 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #220 on: April 29, 2020, 01:05:47 AM »
I don’t. It’s an assumption. Logically people don’t want to pay for products and services they are not receiving.
That is only if you look at the school as a fee for service and you child's chinuch as a product.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zale

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1424
  • Total likes: 374
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn, NY
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #221 on: April 29, 2020, 01:16:20 AM »
That is only if you look at the school as a fee for service and you child's chinuch as a product.

School IS a service. It’s a service that is essential for both halachic and personal reasons, but it’s still a service, just as much as a sofer writing your tefilin is a service.

When you negotiate tuition every year, they make it abundantly clear how much of a service they are.

Offline Shmobaum

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 595
  • Total likes: 221
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: National EE, Hertz Presidential, Marriott Gold Elite, Daf Yomi Presidential Platinum Premier
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #222 on: April 29, 2020, 01:24:03 AM »
Did he ask if he should pay or if he is obligated to pay? There is a big difference.

If you are happy with your school and you want them to stay solvent, if you feel that generally they have been fair with you, if you think they are doing what they can under the circumstances, or even if you hate them but fear some sort of retribution then you should pay even if you may halachically have grounds not to pay the full tuition obligation.

Although some of the school expenses are lower now fundraising revenue has most likely dried up to zero.
His question was “according to halacha am I obligated to pay tuition?”
He replied “ As of now Yes”

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30533
  • Total likes: 7829
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #223 on: April 29, 2020, 07:35:44 AM »
His question was “according to halacha am I obligated to pay tuition?”
He replied “ As of now Yes”

That’s a qualified yes, I wonder what the qualifications are.
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael

Offline knowitall

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 747
  • Total likes: 194
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: 08701
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #224 on: April 29, 2020, 09:09:40 AM »
That is only if you look at the school as a fee for service and you child's chinuch as a product.
Please explain alternate ways of viewing the schools role in your child’s chinuch.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #225 on: April 29, 2020, 10:47:51 AM »
Please explain alternate ways of viewing the schools role in your child’s chinuch.
I have repeated this countless times in this thread.
I do not view the school as a chinuch store. It is the parent's obligation to ensure that there is a financially viable place for their child's chinuch. If that sometimes means paying while there are no services rendered then so be it. Fundraising to keep the school open is not the administrator's responsibility. He is only hired to administer it. It is the parent's responsibility. That is why parents have an obligation to participate in fundraising events. It is not a for-profit store where the customers have no obligation to the store owner. The school is your shliach.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ari3

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2016
  • Posts: 1353
  • Total likes: 532
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: new jersey
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #226 on: April 29, 2020, 02:15:41 PM »
I received this letter from Torah Umesora in my email this morning about tuition. The gedolim are saying to pay from a totally different angle. Not because we signed a tuition contract but because it is our obligation to maintain schools as per תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and in order for the schools to survive tuition needs to be paid.

They also write that schools should extend courtesy to those that are struggling due to the situation.

It is eyeopening to see דעת תורה's angle on this.

Offline yos9694

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 899
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #227 on: April 29, 2020, 02:17:48 PM »
Torah Umesorah just put out suggested guidelines. The long and short of it is, "heifiru torasecha". Sans "l'hashem". Even though tor nischt nemen yenem's, it doesn't apply in this case because "schools must continue to exist". The endless shpiels we got about emunah and bitachon were all baloney. That only applies when it comes to a businessman's financial tzaros, but not a yeshiva's tzaros.

I agree with schools must continue to exist, but only if they represent the torah values and stand as an example of emes vyashrus. Otherwise we can do without them.

The irony is that if the schools did admit that they couldn't rightfully take tuition money, I think most people who are still able to pay would donate and fundraise to save their mosad.

Online moko

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 4567
  • Total likes: 1484
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: BOS
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #228 on: April 29, 2020, 02:33:24 PM »
Question for those who are complaining, why don't you just stop paying? Who's forcing you to keep paying?

Online etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 12861
  • Total likes: 3316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #229 on: April 29, 2020, 02:33:57 PM »
Question for those who are complaining, why don't you just stop paying? Who's forcing you to keep paying?
Complaining is more fun!
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline lubaby

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5335
  • Total likes: 736
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #230 on: April 29, 2020, 02:38:23 PM »
Question for those who are complaining, why don't you just stop paying? Who's forcing you to keep paying?
Possibly worried about not having a school for next year?

Online moko

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 4567
  • Total likes: 1484
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: BOS
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #231 on: April 29, 2020, 02:42:28 PM »
Possibly worried about not having a school for next year?
probably time to pull your kids out of that school in such a case. Start a new school.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #232 on: April 29, 2020, 02:43:07 PM »
I received this letter from Torah Umesora in my email this morning about tuition. The gedolim are saying to pay from a totally different angle. Not because we signed a tuition contract but because it is our obligation to maintain schools as per תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and in order for the schools to survive tuition needs to be paid.

They also write that schools should extend courtesy to those that are struggling due to the situation.

It is eyeopening to see דעת תורה's angle on this.
Wow. Just what i have been saying the entire time.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12818
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #233 on: April 29, 2020, 02:45:47 PM »
Wow. Just what i have been saying the entire time.
It's pashut like that, keeping in mind that @yos9694 is correct (not that I agree with the way he says it) that the burden falls on the community, not the parents in the school. Though the argument could be made in NYC that there is no "community" and the parents in a particular school are the community.
That being said, I am continuing to pay my children's tuition - I believe strongly that we need the schools to survive and that the teachers should continue to be paid.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 03:24:03 PM by Ergel »
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #234 on: April 29, 2020, 02:59:33 PM »
It's pashut like that, keeping in mind that @yos9694 is correct (not that I agree with the way he says it) that the burden falls on the community, not the parents in the school. Though the argument could be made in NYC that there is no "community" and the parents in a particular school are the community.
That being said, I am continuing to pay my children's tuition - I believe strongly that we need the school's to survive and that the teacher's should continue to be paid.

Unless you are referring to a post other than his most recent one, I am not sure where you are seeing him having said that.

And
That is great when there is a community school (a school of a chassidus would presumably be included), but what about a community which has numerous schools?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #235 on: April 29, 2020, 03:04:06 PM »
One thing I am seeing is that some here are very bitter at the school they entrust to be mechanech their children. I suggest that they try to find a more appropriate school. Don't think that this bitterness doesn't terribly affect your children. Even if they don't hear it (unlikely even if you make extreme efforts) they will sense it. How well do you think they will absorb what the rabbeim, who either way are not to blame, teach them after absorbing this attitude towards the school?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zale

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 1424
  • Total likes: 374
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn, NY
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #236 on: April 29, 2020, 03:06:16 PM »
I received this letter from Torah Umesora in my email this morning about tuition. The gedolim are saying to pay from a totally different angle. Not because we signed a tuition contract but because it is our obligation to maintain schools as per תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and in order for the schools to survive tuition needs to be paid.

They also write that schools should extend courtesy to those that are struggling due to the situation.

It is eyeopening to see דעת תורה's angle on this.
How does this explain why full tuition should be paid?

If they pay just the teachers and nothing else, they should be able to issue a discount.

Offline yos9694

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 899
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #237 on: April 29, 2020, 03:06:46 PM »
It's pashut like that, keeping in mind that @yos9694 is correct (not that I agree with the way he says it) that the burden falls on the community, not the parents in the school. Though the argument could be made in NYC that there is no "community" and the parents in a particular school are the community.
That being said, I am continuing to pay my children's tuition - I believe strongly that we need the school's to survive and that the teacher's should continue to be paid.

Fair points, both that what they just published is a pashut svara and that I should have said my piece differently. My frustration here is with the approach only- that from day 1 there was no acknowledgement that anything should be different about tuition obligations from when school is running normally.

The thing is, making sure that all the teachers continue to get paid is very important to me personally and clearly also the right thing to be doing. But that doesn't mean that parents can continue to be billed for tuition though. Sadly, this generation does not possess a Nachshon ben Aminadav.

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12818
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #238 on: April 29, 2020, 03:22:56 PM »
Unless you are referring to a post other than his most recent one, I am not sure where you are seeing him having said that.

And
He deleted a post
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #239 on: April 29, 2020, 03:54:42 PM »
How does this explain why full tuition should be paid?

If they pay just the teachers and nothing else, they should be able to issue a discount.
This is not necessarily the case. I do not have numbers, but there are definitely some important counterpoints to this. (not in any specific order)

1. Mortgages and many other fixed expenses continue to be due.
2. While during the original 2 weeks before pesach many schools used free teleschooling options, those options were not really viable and had many shortcomings which caused many schools to move to more complex and costly systems.
3. Many utility bills will have gone down but not disappear and some may be billed at 75% or more of the original cost for various reasons which I will not get into here. (This is my business expertise-just trust me on this one)
4. There have been equipment and printing costs which they would not have had otherwise
5. Many schools help support the school by having a simcha hall or the like which may have dried up. If now this major source of income is lost, at least they can cancel it out with some of their savings (if they have any)
6. Some items which you are assuming that they are saving may be subsidized by the government or other funding. An example is the lunch program. Many schools receive government funding to cover lunches. They do not save anything by not providing them-just the opposite. They may be losing money on the deal.
7. Other regular fundraising avenues may have also dried up. Many mosdos have their fundraising dinner during sefirah when the halls can give them a discount since they would not be making weddings anyhow. The inability to make these fundraisers can be a very big hit to their budget.
8. I am sure that there are many whose tuition payments have stopped cold turkey. Some due to the inability to pay due to the current financial situation and some because of the attitudes displayed in this thread.

I am sure there are more points in both directions, but your premise is definitely not simple.
Feelings don't care about your facts