Author Topic: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?  (Read 19393 times)

Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #300 on: May 06, 2020, 01:12:32 PM »
Yes, PPP will cover this; and no school (to my knowledge) has communicated this to their student families. Heard from one executive director that he plans to use PPP in lieu of fundraising they would usually do for scholarship (which seems wrong to me - PPP is meant to supplement payroll, not to be used as a new source of revenue.)
PPP is designed to help you cover payroll despite a decline in revenue. Considering fundraising is a large percentage of revenue for a school, and is just about nonexistent now, why would this be inappropriate?
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #301 on: May 06, 2020, 01:13:19 PM »
Yes, PPP will cover this; and no school (to my knowledge) has communicated this to their student families. Heard from one executive director that he plans to use PPP in lieu of fundraising they would usually do for scholarship (which seems wrong to me - PPP is meant to supplement payroll, not to be used as a new source of revenue.)
First of all, not everyone got PPP. Second of all, I don't see the problem - it's all the same. Normally they fundraise to cover the shortfall of tuition not exceeding expenditures. Now that they can't fundraise in the same ways (think dinner and other in-person events) they're using PPP to cover the shortfall of tuition not exceeding expenditures (which is surely a larger shortfall than before). Every school would be better off with appropriate transparency, but that's a separate issue.

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How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #302 on: May 06, 2020, 01:19:46 PM »
First of all, not everyone got PPP. Second of all, I don't see the problem - it's all the same. Normally they fundraise to cover the shortfall of tuition not exceeding expenditures. Now that they can't fundraise in the same ways (think dinner and other in-person events) they're using PPP to cover the shortfall of tuition not exceeding expenditures (which is surely a larger shortfall than before). Every school would be better off with appropriate transparency, but that's a separate issue.

I don't think it's a separate issue, if schools were transparent and sent out a letter explaining to the parents how they are balancing the budget and how much they think it's appropriate for the parents to pay (and offer the option of a donation based system i.e. any monies above the reasonable amount for tuition would be tax-deductible charity), then I think many (most?) parents would be amenable to pay as much as they could.
The current situation of radio silence from (most) schools comes across very poorly.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 01:36:52 PM by Euclid »

Offline lubaby

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #303 on: May 06, 2020, 01:30:57 PM »
I don't think it's a separate issue, if schools were transparent and sent out a letter explaining to the parents how they are balancing the budget and how much they think it's appropriate for the parents to pay (and offer the option of a donation based system i.e. any monies above the reasonable amount for tuition would be tax-deductible charity), then I think many (most?) parents would be amendable to pay as much as they could.
The current situation of radio silence from (most) schools comes across very poorly.
Did schools do this during regular operations?

Annual tuition = $12000
Your "negotiated discount" = $8000
We need to fundraise on your behalf = $4000

The fact that lots of parents never paid full tuition anyways, just kept the schools finances to where they are now (no savings?, heavy debt?, need every estimated penny from parents tuition agreements to barely survive?).
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #304 on: May 06, 2020, 01:40:39 PM »
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding. There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member runs or works for a school. Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we all give everything up.

Almost every industry outside of essentials (and even some essential industries) have had to make compromises, layoffs and paycuts.

Hundreds of millions of restaurant owners, salons, repair shops, dealerships and more have had to close their doors and suspend operations. Doctors are being forced to see less patients, and lawyers are having to postpone cases. There is no doubt that tens of thousands, if not millions of school parents are among these people.

Schools are CLOSED. They are compromising by providing online classes which I am very grateful for. Nontheless, the classes are still not what a physical class would be, not nearly as many hours as physical class would be, and require the parents to be involved every day with tech support.

I reject the notion that the parents, many of whom have lost their jobs or have been forced to take pay cuts, are responsible to continue paying into the school the same amount so that they can keep its' doors open AFTER Covid. As I see it, if parents have to take pay cuts, so do the teachers. I don't understand why schools feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it.

The stories about how parents would sell the shirts off their backs to pay a melamed were for the melamed to learn with the boys a certain number of hours in person. If the melamed in those stories would cut his hours, the parents would cut their pay accordingly.

Contrary to how this comes across, I don't have any beef with my childrens' schools or their teachers. (well, I do with some teachers, but that's a different discussion). I am not asking schools to forgo tuition. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the parents. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue charging my credit card as if all is normal.

Offline knowitall

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #305 on: May 06, 2020, 01:49:14 PM »
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding. There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member runs or works for a school. Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we all give everything up.

Almost every industry outside of essentials (and even some essential industries) have had to make compromises, layoffs and paycuts.

Hundreds of millions of restaurant owners, salons, repair shops, dealerships and more have had to close their doors and suspend operations. Doctors are being forced to see less patients, and lawyers are having to postpone cases. There is no doubt that tens of thousands, if not millions of school parents are among these people.

Schools are CLOSED. They are compromising by providing online classes which I am very grateful for. Nontheless, the classes are still not what a physical class would be, not nearly as many hours as physical class would be, and require the parents to be involved every day with tech support.

I reject the notion that the parents, many of whom have lost their jobs or have been forced to take pay cuts, are responsible to continue paying into the school the same amount so that they can keep its' doors open AFTER Covid. As I see it, if parents have to take pay cuts, so do the teachers. I don't understand why schools feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it.

The stories about how parents would sell the shirts off their backs to pay a melamed were for the melamed to learn with the boys a certain number of hours in person. If the melamed in those stories would cut his hours, the parents would cut their pay accordingly.

Contrary to how this comes across, I don't have any beef with my childrens' schools or their teachers. (well, I do with some teachers, but that's a different discussion). I am not asking schools to forgo tuition. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the parents. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue charging my credit card as if all is normal.
FYI I have no school age kids.

I agree with most of your points.
This is mainly about communication and transparency, and by and large it seems the mosdos have failed in that regard.

Re Pay cuts- teachers can barely make it on a regular day, thereís really no room for them to take pay cuts.
Now the Deans, administrators, principals-while they have been working much harder now due to Covid, they have higher (undisclosed) salaries, maybe itís time for some transparency there.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #306 on: May 06, 2020, 01:52:15 PM »
FYI I have no school age kids.

I agree with most of your points.
This is mainly about communication and transparency, and by and large it seems the mosdos have failed in that regard.

Re Pay cuts- teachers can barely make it on a regular day, thereís really no room for them to take pay cuts.
Now the Deans, administrators, principals-while they have been working much harder now due to Covid, they have higher (undisclosed) salaries, maybe itís time for some transparency there.
Re pay cuts, I feel bad that they are paid very little in general, but no other businesses that had to close said "this guy gets paid very little so I'm not going to furlough or fire him". He's just asking why schools are assumed to be different than other businesses in this regard. Plenty of people that weren't making it lost whatever they were getting....

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #307 on: May 06, 2020, 01:52:37 PM »
teachers can barely make it on a regular day, thereís really no room for them to take pay cuts.

This is true in some cases, and very much not true in others.

My son's school pays teachers very reasonably, and most teachers fare better than the average businessman in my community. The teachers get to double-dip by not paying taxes on half of their salaries by receiving it as parsonage, and at the same time using parsonage to get a mortgage and other benefits. I have nothing against this and I am happy for them.


Offline skyguy918

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #308 on: May 06, 2020, 02:05:43 PM »
There seems to be an assumption that schools are not working with people who have been affected financially and would like a revised tuition agreement. Is that really the case? This is different from whether they are proactively reaching out to people about tuition adjustments or whatever, which I don't really see as necessary on the schools' part.

Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #309 on: May 06, 2020, 02:11:52 PM »
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding. There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member runs or works for a school. Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we all give everything up.

Almost every industry outside of essentials (and even some essential industries) have had to make compromises, layoffs and paycuts.

Hundreds of millions of restaurant owners, salons, repair shops, dealerships and more have had to close their doors and suspend operations. Doctors are being forced to see less patients, and lawyers are having to postpone cases. There is no doubt that tens of thousands, if not millions of school parents are among these people.

Schools are CLOSED. They are compromising by providing online classes which I am very grateful for. Nontheless, the classes are still not what a physical class would be, not nearly as many hours as physical class would be, and require the parents to be involved every day with tech support.

I reject the notion that the parents, many of whom have lost their jobs or have been forced to take pay cuts, are responsible to continue paying into the school the same amount so that they can keep its' doors open AFTER Covid. As I see it, if parents have to take pay cuts, so do the teachers. I don't understand why schools feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it.

The stories about how parents would sell the shirts off their backs to pay a melamed were for the melamed to learn with the boys a certain number of hours in person. If the melamed in those stories would cut his hours, the parents would cut their pay accordingly.

Contrary to how this comes across, I don't have any beef with my childrens' schools or their teachers. (well, I do with some teachers, but that's a different discussion). I am not asking schools to forgo tuition. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the parents. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue charging my credit card as if all is normal.
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding. There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member has children who attend a school. Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by deaths of relatives and friends from Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we live our lives as usual, including minyanim, open businesses, etc. regardless of the illness, death, and devastation we will leave in our path.

Almost every industry outside of essentials (and even some essential industries) have had to make compromises, layoffs and paycuts because of a loss of revenue.

Hundreds of millions of restaurant owners, salons, repair shops, dealerships and more have had to close their doors and suspend operations. Doctors are being forced to see less patients, and lawyers are having to postpone cases. There is no doubt that tens of thousands, if not millions of school parents are among these people.

Schools are offering a product which is not the same as the stellar product they always do, as are ALL OTHER BUSINESSES, because they have been forced to discontinue regular operations. Nontheless, the classes are still far harder to prepare for and administer than a physical class would be, many more hours of preparation than a physical class would be, and require the teachers and staff to continue operations as usual despite also being home with their families.

I reject the notion that the schools, many of whom have lost revenue, are working harder, and already offer most parents a price that is BELOW COST of their product due to the generosity and hard work of others and never force you to give more than you are able, but work with you at your personal income level despite the cost, a business model thatís unheard of, are responsible to continue educating your children at the same price so that they can educate your children properly during and after Covid.. As I see it, if teachers have to take pay cuts, parents need to accept lower quality schooling now and forever. I don't understand why parents feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it in every other area of their lives. Oddly, I donít see people requesting that grocery stores and pharmacies, already making large profits, lower their prices to match the aid they may or may not be receiving.

The stories about how parents would sell the shirts off their backs to pay a melamed were before schools formed, providing an amazing opportunity that allowed for those who are able to subsidize those who are not.

Contrary to how this comes across, I don't have any beef with people who bash schools relentlessly and refuse to consider their perspectives at all. (well, I do with some posters, but that's a different discussion). The most glaring part of this is, I highly doubt there is any poster who has reached out to the school to renegotiate because of their trying circumstances and been refused a further discount to the presumably already deeply discounted rate they were paying. I am not asking parents to increase tuition to at least cover the cost of educating their own child. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the schools if they are having trouble. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue bashing schools as if they are being ripped off by continuing to pay the same price for a service that, while the product is diminished, takes more effort to produce hpwhen they are not doing that in any other area of their life, and the school would be more than happy to negotiate at any time if they have further financial stress.
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #310 on: May 06, 2020, 02:20:29 PM »
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding. There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member has children who attend a school. Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by deaths of relatives and friends from Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we live our lives as usual, including minyanim, open businesses, etc. regardless of the illness, death, and devastation we will leave in our path.

Almost every industry outside of essentials (and even some essential industries) have had to make compromises, layoffs and paycuts because of a loss of revenue.

Hundreds of millions of restaurant owners, salons, repair shops, dealerships and more have had to close their doors and suspend operations. Doctors are being forced to see less patients, and lawyers are having to postpone cases. There is no doubt that tens of thousands, if not millions of school parents are among these people.

Schools are offering a product which is not the same as the stellar product they always do, as are ALL OTHER BUSINESSES, because they have been forced to discontinue regular operations. Nontheless, the classes are still far harder to prepare for and administer than a physical class would be, many more hours of preparation than a physical class would be, and require the teachers and staff to continue operations as usual despite also being home with their families.

I reject the notion that the schools, many of whom have lost revenue, are working harder, and already offer most parents a price that is BELOW COST of their product due to the generosity and hard work of others and never force you to give more than you are able, but work with you at your personal income level despite the cost, a business model thatís unheard of, are responsible to continue educating your children at the same price so that they can educate your children properly during and after Covid.. As I see it, if teachers have to take pay cuts, parents need to accept lower quality schooling now and forever. I don't understand why parents feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it in every other area of their lives. Oddly, I donít see people requesting that grocery stores and pharmacies, already making large profits, lower their prices to match the aid they may or may not be receiving.

The stories about how parents would sell the shirts off their backs to pay a melamed were before schools formed, providing an amazing opportunity that allowed for those who are able to subsidize those who are not.

Contrary to how this comes across, I don't have any beef with people who bash schools relentlessly and refuse to consider their perspectives at all. (well, I do with some posters, but that's a different discussion). The most glaring part of this is, I highly doubt there is any poster who has reached out to the school to renegotiate because of their trying circumstances and been refused a further discount to the presumably already deeply discounted rate they were paying. I am not asking parents to increase tuition to at least cover the cost of educating their own child. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the schools if they are having trouble. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue bashing schools as if they are being ripped off by continuing to pay the same price for a service that, while the product is diminished, takes more effort to produce hpwhen they are not doing that in any other area of their life, and the school would be more than happy to negotiate at any time if they have further financial stress.
Lol cute, though you've mentioned previously that a family member runs a school...please be honest about your bias.


Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #311 on: May 06, 2020, 02:29:25 PM »
Lol cute, though you've mentioned previously that a family member runs a school...please be honest about your bias.
How was I dishonest? I stated this in a post yesterday

Full disclosure: a relative of mine runs an American Seminary (not that that has anything to do with my question)
and never claimed lack of bias since.

However.. this particular problem/solution set doesnít really affect seminaries like schools. Tuition is largely paid up by this point of the year, parents have no vested interest in the long term future of the Seminary, and fundraising is not a large part of revenue. Government grants cover most of the tuition anyway for the students that need it.

The point of my post was to show that the righteous indignation being shown has an equally valid counterpoint, not that he doesnít have any points. I apologize if that message wasnít clear.
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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #312 on: May 06, 2020, 02:31:03 PM »
Both sides of this definitely have merit. The Choshen Mishpat bais din in Lakewood paskened יד המוחזק על העליונה for this reason (see attached - tshuva beis).

The main issue that I perceive is that the schools aren't being transparent. In normal times, everyone knows that the school has fundraisers/dinner is to cover any budget shortfalls (usually caused by scholarship deductions). And when a parent asks for a deduction this is the understanding (and many of these parents work extra hard during dinner season to help the school raise the missing funds, calling relatives/friends etc), therefore the parent body knows, for the most part, how the school is meeting its budget.

These aren't normal times, and children aren't receiving their full education/daycare, and thus parents are understandably feel they shouldn't be required to pay their full amount. However, the school still has a budget to meet and if parents cut tuition this will cause major budgetary issues; and being that the parents signed a tuition agreement they should still be responsible for the full amount.

The monkey wrench is PPP, the parents can point to PPP and claim that it's to replace the tuition which I don't want to pay (or unable to pay); and the school claims that PPP is to replace alternative fundraising. Therefore, יד המוחזק על העליונה seems to be a relatively robust psak.


Either way - the school should offer the option of tuition being considered as a tax deductible donation, especially considering they aren't receiving other donations (as they claim PPP should be in lieu of alternative fundraising).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 02:37:20 PM by Euclid »

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #313 on: May 06, 2020, 02:35:24 PM »
How was I dishonest? I stated this in a post yesterday and never claimed lack of bias since.

However.. this particular problem/solution set doesnít really affect seminaries like schools. Tuition is largely paid up by this point of the year, parents have no vested interest in the long term future of the Seminary, and fundraising is not a large part of revenue. Government grants cover most of the tuition anyway for the students that need it.

The point of my post was to show that the righteous indignation being shown has an equally valid counterpoint, not that he doesnít have any points. I apologize if that message wasnít clear.

Apologies - I understood that your father ran a school from this: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115635.msg2229670#msg2229670
I agree seminaries are different.

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #314 on: May 06, 2020, 02:58:54 PM »
Apologies - I understood that your father ran a school from this: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=115635.msg2229670#msg2229670
I agree seminaries are different.
Got it, apology accepted
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