Author Topic: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?  (Read 24269 times)

Offline Euclid

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #330 on: May 06, 2020, 06:34:30 PM »
..
Agreed - there needs to be some sort of prorated amount (or some other calculation).

Online zale

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #331 on: May 07, 2020, 12:22:59 AM »
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding.

OK, I'll bite.

Quote
There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member has children who attend a school.

This is not a bias. Anyone who has children sends them to school. The conversation begins where you are paying for a product or service that you are not receiving.

Quote
Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by deaths of relatives and friends from Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we live our lives as usual, including minyanim, open businesses, etc. regardless of the illness, death, and devastation we will leave in our path.

This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You can take it to the "is your shul still open?" thread.

Quote
Schools are offering a product which is not the same as the stellar product they always do, as are ALL OTHER BUSINESSES, because they have been forced to discontinue regular operations. Nontheless, the classes are still far harder to prepare for and administer than a physical class would be, many more hours of preparation than a physical class would be, and require the teachers and staff to continue operations as usual despite also being home with their families.

You failed to mention that all other business do NOT charge for a service that they are unable to provide, regardless of how many hoops they have to jump through.

Quote
I reject the notion that the schools, many of whom have lost revenue, are working harder, and already offer most parents a price that is BELOW COST of their product due to the generosity and hard work of others

A price is a price. The fact that Jewish schools run on a deficit doesn't change this fact.

Quote
and never force you to give more than you are able, but work with you at your personal income level despite the cost,

If you run a school, you are welcome to speak for yourself. Schools that I know will milk every dollar they can out of the parents. If you don't demand a discount, they will take you to the cleaners. And again, it's irrelevant whether the price covers the school's expenses or not.

Quote
a business model thatís unheard of, are responsible to continue educating your children at the same price so that they can educate your children properly during and after Covid.

No, it's very much heard of. It's called being a non-profit. Let me know when they are ready to drop their not-for-profit status and start paying tax like a business.

Quote
As I see it, if teachers have to take pay cuts, parents need to accept lower quality schooling now and forever.

The teachers will deal with it the same way parents are with their own lost jobs and paycuts, and they should be able to get funds from the PPP.

Quote
I don't understand why parents feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it in every other area of their lives. Oddly, I donít see people requesting that grocery stores and pharmacies, already making large profits, lower their prices to match the aid they may or may not be receiving.

Seriously? What kind of comparison is this? If your grocery store shorted you on products you ordered, you would absolutely get a refund.

Quote

The most glaring part of this is, I highly doubt there is any poster who has reached out to the school to renegotiate because of their trying circumstances and been refused a further discount to the presumably already deeply discounted rate they were paying. I am not asking parents to increase tuition to at least cover the cost of educating their own child. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the schools if they are having trouble. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue bashing schools as if they are being ripped off by continuing to pay the same price for a service that, while the product is diminished, takes more effort to produce hpwhen they are not doing that in any other area of their life, and the school would be more than happy to negotiate at any time if they have further financial stress.

No offense, but this stinks of utter bias.

Parents are the customers. Parents paid for a service that is not being provided as agreed upon. The onus lies squarely on the SCHOOL to reach out and explain why they have the right to continue charging for a service that they are not providing as agreed upon. They should not be depositing any checks or charging any cards until they reach out and ask the parents if they are OK with being charged for a service that was not provided. I'm not interested in excuses about how parents already got a discount. It's irrelevant. If you got a discount on a car, you'd still expect the car to be in the shape it was advertised in, and you would still demand a refund if it was not.

Also, your assumption that nobody reached out to the schools is simply wrong. I know for a fact that my sons school did not answer any calls. period.

Offline reed

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #332 on: May 07, 2020, 12:36:49 AM »
OK, I'll bite.

This is not a bias. Anyone who has children sends them to school. The conversation begins where you are paying for a product or service that you are not receiving.

This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You can take it to the "is your shul still open?" thread.

You failed to mention that all other business do NOT charge for a service that they are unable to provide, regardless of how many hoops they have to jump through.

A price is a price. The fact that Jewish schools run on a deficit doesn't change this fact.

If you run a school, you are welcome to speak for yourself. Schools that I know will milk every dollar they can out of the parents. If you don't demand a discount, they will take you to the cleaners. And again, it's irrelevant whether the price covers the school's expenses or not.

No, it's very much heard of. It's called being a non-profit. Let me know when they are ready to drop their not-for-profit status and start paying tax like a business.

The teachers will deal with it the same way parents are with their own lost jobs and paycuts, and they should be able to get funds from the PPP.

Seriously? What kind of comparison is this? If your grocery store shorted you on products you ordered, you would absolutely get a refund.

No offense, but this stinks of utter bias.

Parents are the customers. Parents paid for a service that is not being provided as agreed upon. The onus lies squarely on the SCHOOL to reach out and explain why they have the right to continue charging for a service that they are not providing as agreed upon. They should not be depositing any checks or charging any cards until they reach out and ask the parents if they are OK with being charged for a service that was not provided. I'm not interested in excuses about how parents already got a discount. It's irrelevant. If you got a discount on a car, you'd still expect the car to be in the shape it was advertised in, and you would still demand a refund if it was not.

Also, your assumption that nobody reached out to the schools is simply wrong. I know for a fact that my sons school did not answer any calls. period.

This. So much this. Wish there could be some kind of ďtumultĒ about this as with minyanim. Schools should show they appreciate that itís hard for a lot of us to shoulder the burden of multiple full tuitions and reach out and try to make things easier by discounting a nice percentage of the tuition.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #333 on: May 07, 2020, 01:08:41 AM »
schools have 2 primary tasks
1. chincuh
2. babysitting

while schools don't do the 2nd job they work much harder on the 1st even if its less hours, go take a look behind the scenes how much work goes into all this
so if you say that I only send because it includes babysitting and since they don't provide babysitting I shouldn't be held accountable/responsible to pay, nunu

but if your child participates in part 1 these days, they can say that costs x amount which might be equal to your reg monthly tuition

the only taanah that you could still have is ppp is there to pay for it
-my opinion

Offline ar

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #334 on: May 07, 2020, 01:44:11 AM »
I believe tuition needs to continue being paid in full.

This "let them figure it out" mentality that parents have is wrong on many levels. The financial status of our schools should be in our best interest to support and maintain. Most schools struggle every year to cover their budget even when tuition's are paid in full. To a certain degree, our children's education depend on the financial status of the school, since they can hire quality teachers, pay staff better and on-time (happier staff = happier children).

Now, even though we are currently not getting full education services, the schools expenses hasn't really changed much. Perhaps the schools can do a better job explaining that, but it has nothing to do with the fact that tuition needs to continue getting paid. Frankly, all these complaints on schools "they should've, would've, could've..." is based on our own opinion while sitting on a recliner at home. We are not in the administrators chair, and don't want to sit there. Talk is cheap, its easier said than done. Even though we pay them to do their job and are allowed to have an opinion, we need to be grateful to them for educating our kids and running the school which most of us wouldn't do. Most of the staff are not in it only for the money, they are there for a higher purpose, educating your children. Don't undercut them.

Bottom line, not paying tuition is just screwing them (and yourself). School is not "a regular" business, its "our" business.

Disclaimer: this is my humble opinion while sitting on the recliner at home

Offline aygart

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #335 on: May 07, 2020, 07:38:46 AM »
OK, I'll bite.

This is not a bias. Anyone who has children sends them to school. The conversation begins where you are paying for a product or service that you are not receiving.

This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You can take it to the "is your shul still open?" thread.

You failed to mention that all other business do NOT charge for a service that they are unable to provide, regardless of how many hoops they have to jump through.

A price is a price. The fact that Jewish schools run on a deficit doesn't change this fact.

If you run a school, you are welcome to speak for yourself. Schools that I know will milk every dollar they can out of the parents. If you don't demand a discount, they will take you to the cleaners. And again, it's irrelevant whether the price covers the school's expenses or not.

No, it's very much heard of. It's called being a non-profit. Let me know when they are ready to drop their not-for-profit status and start paying tax like a business.

The teachers will deal with it the same way parents are with their own lost jobs and paycuts, and they should be able to get funds from the PPP.

Seriously? What kind of comparison is this? If your grocery store shorted you on products you ordered, you would absolutely get a refund.

No offense, but this stinks of utter bias.

Parents are the customers. Parents paid for a service that is not being provided as agreed upon. The onus lies squarely on the SCHOOL to reach out and explain why they have the right to continue charging for a service that they are not providing as agreed upon. They should not be depositing any checks or charging any cards until they reach out and ask the parents if they are OK with being charged for a service that was not provided. I'm not interested in excuses about how parents already got a discount. It's irrelevant. If you got a discount on a car, you'd still expect the car to be in the shape it was advertised in, and you would still demand a refund if it was not.

Also, your assumption that nobody reached out to the schools is simply wrong. I know for a fact that my sons school did not answer any calls. period.

You quoted here how a school has an OBLIGATION to accept every child whether or not they have the ability to pay. If you are unable to pay they cannot tell you either party or don't take my product. That makes the negotiations over tuition very different than negotiations with a car dealer. A discount from the car dealer is purely a business decision.  Not so at a school. This is the flip side of that coin. Therefore the tuition discounts are very different and the ability to demand a refund changes. If it is a simple fee for service then they have a right to tell you that they will not provide the service without you paying in full. If they have no such right when discussing tuition level then you h have no such right when an emergency prevents them from providing the service. Either you are a customer both when negotiating price and when receiving the service it it is a community obligation both times.


Not returning calls is absolutely not okay and i very much understand your frustrations in that regard. A parent does have a right to say that until we discuss this further they well not pay.

ETA i also understand why when a school does not return calls and will not discuss the changing circumstances of the parents that will change the metrics of what i wrote above. That means that the school is looking at it as a fee for service even though they are not providing it. Not okay.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 07:47:45 AM by aygart »
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Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #336 on: May 07, 2020, 08:17:57 AM »
OK, I'll bite.

This is not a bias. Anyone who has children sends them to school. The conversation begins where you are paying for a product or service that you are not receiving.

This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You can take it to the "is your shul still open?" thread.

You failed to mention that all other business do NOT charge for a service that they are unable to provide, regardless of how many hoops they have to jump through.

A price is a price. The fact that Jewish schools run on a deficit doesn't change this fact.

If you run a school, you are welcome to speak for yourself. Schools that I know will milk every dollar they can out of the parents. If you don't demand a discount, they will take you to the cleaners. And again, it's irrelevant whether the price covers the school's expenses or not.

No, it's very much heard of. It's called being a non-profit. Let me know when they are ready to drop their not-for-profit status and start paying tax like a business.

The teachers will deal with it the same way parents are with their own lost jobs and paycuts, and they should be able to get funds from the PPP.

Seriously? What kind of comparison is this? If your grocery store shorted you on products you ordered, you would absolutely get a refund.

No offense, but this stinks of utter bias.

Parents are the customers. Parents paid for a service that is not being provided as agreed upon. The onus lies squarely on the SCHOOL to reach out and explain why they have the right to continue charging for a service that they are not providing as agreed upon. They should not be depositing any checks or charging any cards until they reach out and ask the parents if they are OK with being charged for a service that was not provided. I'm not interested in excuses about how parents already got a discount. It's irrelevant. If you got a discount on a car, you'd still expect the car to be in the shape it was advertised in, and you would still demand a refund if it was not.

Also, your assumption that nobody reached out to the schools is simply wrong. I know for a fact that my sons school did not answer any calls. period.
The only point in here which I agree with is your final paragraph. That is wrong, and unacceptable. It has not been the case of the schools I am in contact with, but that does undermine what I wrote.

There is so much wrong with the rest, Iíll beĒh come back later to address it, unless someone else first does a better job.

ETA: I also find it funny how all I did was take your post and change it around so you can see how much of what you said could be pointed in the other direction, and all you did was attack those trains of thought. Did you even see what I did? Ex: I didnít bring up peoples attitude towards Covid, you did. I just parroted it back. So Iím not sure why I should be bringing it to the Shul thread.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 09:24:40 AM by S209 »
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Offline Pupashtetl

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #337 on: May 07, 2020, 10:03:24 AM »
Is there any reason not to reopen babysitting and playgroup services in our areas? I would say that 95 percent of parents sending to such services are under 40 years old. And those that aren't comfortable doing that, shouldn't send.

Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #338 on: May 07, 2020, 10:33:56 AM »
OK, I'll bite.
Bite at what? No reason to attack, I was clearly not trying to be insensitive and just trying to understand, right? No? Oh well, then I guess prefacing with that statement doesnít actually mean anything if you then go on to attack. Look back and see your post that I was responding to.

This is not a bias. Anyone who has children sends them to school. The conversation begins where you are paying for a product or service that you are not receiving.

I donít care how many people do it, of course itís a bias. As someone sending a child to school, you ARE biased to want money back, as much as schools are biased to not want to give it. Are you saying youíre not biased towards the schools lowering tuition because youíre a parent?!

This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You can take it to the "is your shul still open?" thread.
True, but youíre the one who brought it up. I just turned it on itís head. You said some feel saintly and righteous because they werenít affected by saying give everything up. Iím saying the reverse is equally if not more true. Itís laughable that this is a point you were trying to make.

You failed to mention that all other business do NOT charge for a service that they are unable to provide, regardless of how many hoops they have to jump through.

A price is a price. The fact that Jewish schools run on a deficit doesn't change this fact.
Ok, this is the point that we are really disagreeing on, so letís discuss.

You are saying that the school is providing you a lesser service and therefore should be charging you less. You also threw in that you think the teachers should get a pay cut just like the parents do, because you think theyíre very well paid and double dip etc. and itís only fair. (Keep in mind, Iím defending their position because youíre attacking it. Theyíre not necessarily right, but you specifically asked for someone to explain it and I am attempting to do that. Please refrain from attacking me just because youíre biased towards not understanding, as it makes you feel comfortable saving money at the schoolís expense). Hereís why youíre (possibly) wrong:

First, you need to understand that a grocery store and school are not equal. Schools operate very differently than other businesses. They are not opened for profits but to provide a service to the community, and it is the communityís obligation to keep them going. We have moved to a model of the parents of children sustaining the schools, proportional to the amount of children attending school, with the help of wealthier benefactors to cover the gaps in revenue, rather than there being an equal burden shared by all community members. This model makes more sense because those deriving more benefits should pay more into the pot, but there are also issues with it, as people note all the time.

With that said, the burden to keep the school going for their child falls largely upon the parents who are sending their child to school. They are fulfilling their obligation to educate their child through the school, and are responsible to help pay for the service. Nevertheless, most people cannot afford to pay their fair share, so the schools allow them to pay what they can afford, NOT the price of ďwhat they are gettingĒ. Itís easy to just say thatís what a non-profit is when youíre getting subsidized, and then treat them like a regular business when it comes to demanding a refund, but that is how they operate.

My point was, they are still providing and will continue to provide a service. They should certainly be treated no WORSE than a grocery store. Take an example of a current Prime member who is still using Amazon a lot, but is not currently getting 2 day shipping due to Covid. He is up for renewal. Do you have a right to demand a refund from Amazon for your Prime membership because some of the benefits are now missing? No, you can choose to stop being a member any time. Do you have a right to demand that Gourmet Glatt take responsibility for incorrect items, which they are not doing during Covid? No, you can take your business elsewhere. Can you demand a refund from Geico because youíre driving your car less? No, you can stop using them.

The schools are offering a diminished product through no fault of their own, but they are still providing their services. They will also continue to provide those after these issues are over. Do you wish to pull your child out of school now, and keep him out forever? No problem, theyíre probably ok with you leaving. I know Iíd be if you were a parent in a school I had. If you are continuing to utilize their services and will continue in the future you have no right to demand a discount or refund. At least as much as any other business could tell you, this is the service they are currently providing and if you donít like it, leave.

Then, you seem to be throwing in the concept of if parents are struggling, teachers should struggle. I know what you said about teachers in your community but in the communities Iím associated with teachers are very poorly compensated. Yes, they hopefully get Tzedaka to help them make Yom Tov and Simchos. Are you envious of that? Call Tomchei Shabbos and asked to be added to the list, they donít discriminate. Anything less than the starvation wage they already receive would be a total joke. Why should they get less because other people are making less? They already work in a quasi-chesed role. Remember, many of them are working even harder than before.

If your argument is that a parent is now having a harder time paying bills, then they should be calling the school to negotiate again, much like any other time a parent loses a job or income decreases. The school should not proactively reach out and offer a blanket discount for everyone to latch onto. Like you said, many are unaffected by Covid and should not be paying less because of it.

If your argument is that itís ďfairĒ for teachers to get paid less because some parents are making less, so therefore schools should unilaterally charge less and then pay teachers less, tell that to Amazon. Theyíre cutting your benefits, so they should discount your membership and pay their workers less to make it fair. Turns out, thatís not how life works. They have an obligation to pay their teachers in full when they can, assuming theyíre still working. They donít need to pay teachers less because some parents are struggling, although certainly the school should be giving discounts to those parents that need it and finding another way to help cover the funds (PPP?). Keep in mind, the fundraising that usually stops the gap is now nonexistent, so they are in desperate need of even more funds now.

If your argument is that theyíre providing a diminished product, this is the best service they can now provide and they will return to the previous service when they can. If you are saying you want to withdraw your child from school now and keep him out in the future, no problem. I understood that you would like to keep your children enrolled now and through graduation. If thatís the case, then this is the price for these services. If you think theyíre saving money, youíre wrong. They still need to cover the vast majority of their budget, and again, itís on your shoulders as much as it is on theirs.

As @aygart often says, itís your responsibility to educate your child, and the school is working for you.

If you run a school, you are welcome to speak for yourself. Schools that I know will milk every dollar they can out of the parents. If you don't demand a discount, they will take you to the cleaners. And again, it's irrelevant whether the price covers the school's expenses or not.


See above, they want to get as close to what you should be paying as what you can afford.

CEOs are not making obscene profits off your backs, they are providing a necessary and very costly service to you at the price you can pay thatís closest to what the cost of the service really should be. Theyíre not Harvard (a non-profit!) that makes tens of millions of dollars a year in profit. These schools have no savings and generally run at a deficit.

Itís very relevant whether you are covering the cost or not. If you are not paying for the actual cost of the service youíre receiving, but rather paying by ability regardless of cost, why would your share go down now because of the service changing? The only reasons your share should go down would be if your ability decreased or the actual cost decreased, thus lowering your share.

  No, it's very much heard of. It's called being a non-profit. Let me know when they are ready to drop their not-for-profit status and start paying tax like a business.

Drop their status and start paying tax like a business?! Really? They donít MAKE a profit, so there would be no tax paid. Youíre insinuating that because they are a nonprofit they must consistently deliver the same quality goods that you are used to, because somehow theyíre getting rich of that status. Their non-profit status further subsidizes the cost of education, making it more affordable for everyone. If they dropped their non-profit status you are OK with paying more tuition, even if you canít afford it?

The teachers will deal with it the same way parents are with their own lost jobs and paycuts, and they should be able to get funds from the PPP.
See above for the teachers part. About the PPP, there is some merit to this but you are discounting the facts that A) They desperately need to cover lost revenue from lack of fundraising and people needing larger breaks now and B) PPP covers payroll for 8 weeks, not the ~16 weeks theyíll need.

  Seriously? What kind of comparison is this? If your grocery store shorted you on products you ordered, you would absolutely get a refund.
See above. If you are currently receiving and will continue to receive a product or service you cannot demand that they unilaterally offer a blanket price decrease. You are actively paying for and actively receiving a service. No other company is doing that, with the exception of some car insurance companies. If you do not want the diminished service many companies are now offering you can take your business elsewhere.

No offense, but this stinks of utter bias.
Offense taken nonetheless. No offense, but youíre a complete piece of garbage. How does that feel? No offense taken? YOU clearly very much are biased. Biased because Iím providing an explanation that you requested?

Parents are the customers. Parents paid for a service that is not being provided as agreed upon. The onus lies squarely on the SCHOOL to reach out and explain why they have the right to continue charging for a service that they are not providing as agreed upon. They should not be depositing any checks or charging any cards until they reach out and ask the parents if they are OK with being charged for a service that was not provided. I'm not interested in excuses about how parents already got a discount. It's irrelevant. If you got a discount on a car, you'd still expect the car to be in the shape it was advertised in, and you would still demand a refund if it was not.
See above. Is it on Amazon to reach out and tell you their 2 day shipping is gone, can they still charge you for Prime renewal? Or is it on you to let them know if youíre unsatisfied, considering youíre still using the service theyíre offering?

  Also, your assumption that nobody reached out to the schools is simply wrong. I know for a fact that my sons school did not answer any calls. period.
As I have posted, if this is true of your school then that is a legitimate complaint. I donít think they should be allowed to ignore calls and that undermines all of the points I was making.
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Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #339 on: May 07, 2020, 10:35:07 AM »
Is there any reason not to reopen babysitting and playgroup services in our areas? I would say that 95 percent of parents sending to such services are under 40 years old. And those that aren't comfortable doing that, shouldn't send.
There are many reasons not to, whether itís right or wrong, but this is probably the wrong thread
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Offline aygart

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #340 on: May 07, 2020, 11:00:49 AM »
I do think that the attitudes expressed by@zale are hastily a result of the way he feels treated by his school. He feels they try to milk what they can and they are refusing to listen to anyone who has different circumstances now. From that perspective his points do make much more sense. Thankfully I have never had such an experience.
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Offline yos9694

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #341 on: May 07, 2020, 11:06:54 AM »
To all the people who keep bringing up "the teachers and administrators are working so hard" as a reason to take money from parents: You must be confused. Anu ameilim u'mekabilim schar refers to learning torah and schar in the next world. In the world of business, working hard is not a justification for taking other people's money. Go join a choshen mishpat in your spare time.

Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #342 on: May 07, 2020, 11:15:40 AM »
To all the people who keep bringing up "the teachers and administrators are working so hard" as a reason to take money from parents: You must be confused. Anu ameilim u'mekabilim schar refers to learning torah and schar in the next world. In the world of business, working hard is not a justification for taking other people's money. Go join a choshen mishpat in your spare time.
To all the people who keep reading small parts of a large post and call charging for a service ďtaking moneyĒ: You must be a socialist. In the world of business, not being compensated for working hard is a reason for people to stop.
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Offline S209

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #343 on: May 07, 2020, 11:19:30 AM »
I do think that the attitudes expressed by@zale are hastily a result of the way he feels treated by his school. He feels they try to milk what they can and they are refusing to listen to anyone who has different circumstances now. From that perspective his points do make much more sense. Thankfully I have never had such an experience.
Agreed, it sounds like he has a problem with a particular school. I think that based on what he has said they seem to have treated him unfairly, although if the sentiments he has expressed on this thread are how he feels itís possible the schools are aware of that which is why they are reluctant to work with him. Regardless, itís unfair to generalize and bash schools because of an unfortunate experience with a solitary institution.

@zale : This is grounds to leave that mossad and go elsewhere, as it seems you really donít get along with your school, which is terrible for your childís Chinuch. From what you have mentioned they seem to have treated you poorly.
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Offline Mootkim

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Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
« Reply #344 on: May 07, 2020, 03:24:58 PM »
In other news, the Yeshiva Gedolah of Philadelphia put out a blanket letter stating that they will be reducing the tuition for everyone because "the cost of room and board for this time period has shifted to the parents".