Author Topic: yeshivas that are open  (Read 17216 times)

Offline Ergel

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #435 on: June 21, 2020, 07:44:56 AM »
There are countless articles. Here is one from June 14

https://medium.com/@shinjieyong/the-covid-19-virus-can-last-for-months-why-efb8314b2b98


More shocking than arguing about a simple Google search results is that people here who spend considerable time talking about the virus don't know it's elementary details
But I see with my own eyes that... who cares about data/experts or anything else. God gave me two eyes for a reason!!
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline gozalim

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #436 on: June 21, 2020, 10:52:39 AM »
How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe?
The argument made by those better equipped is that high percentage of antibodies /assumed immunity combined with no new sources of infection.

What happens later this week, when 10s (or more) susceptible out of towners with your attitude decide it's OK to ignore the plea of rabbonim and doctors not to visit? Do we risk introducing new infection source to the remaining susceptible population?
Just in time for 770s superspread grand reopening

Offline Lurker

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #437 on: June 21, 2020, 10:54:50 AM »
The argument made by those better equipped is that high percentage of antibodies /assumed immunity combined with no new sources of infection.

What happens later this week, when 10s (or more) susceptible out of towners with your attitude decide it's OK to ignore the plea of rabbonim and doctors not to visit? Do we risk introducing new infection source to the remaining susceptible population?
Just in time for 770s superspread grand reopening

10's? Much more than that. Hundreds have already come in for weddings.
Tick tock

Offline gozalim

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #438 on: June 21, 2020, 10:57:58 AM »
And I'm serious about the attitude. I get that masks are more uncomfortable for @ExGingi than for the rest of us (or is the discomfort in needing to cede some self assurance)
But why does my mask bother you? (not you, the next guy)
Why was I heckled out of a farbrenen yesterday for wearing one?
That's the attitude I'm afraid will start the new wave

Online Euclid

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #439 on: June 21, 2020, 11:22:16 AM »
If its so established then why have we not seen any articles since early May? There was 1 article from Vox and thats it.
An article last night from your side of the world: https://www.timesofisrael.com/recovered-covid-19-patients-suffer-major-ongoing-physical-cognitive-problems/

Offline ExGingi

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #440 on: June 21, 2020, 11:26:19 AM »
And I'm serious about the attitude. I get that masks are more uncomfortable for @ExGingi than for the rest of us (or is the discomfort in needing to cede some self assurance)
But why does my mask bother you? (not you, the next guy)
Why was I heckled out of a farbrenen yesterday for wearing one?
That's the attitude I'm afraid will start the new wave

There is absolutely no excuse or reasonable explanation for you or anyone else to be heckled out of a farbrengen for wearing a mask (is there any legitimate reason to heckled out of a farbrengen, other than disruptive behavior?).

1414 set strict guidelines for re-admission. There's a list of 162 names posted on the door who are currently allowed in. While some of the requirements for re-admission are draconian (having a prior positive COVID-19 test), at least there's some reason.

I have been saying for weeks (if not months) that people who had symptoms and recovered (and now with antibody testing, add to that a positive antibody test) should be given a bracelet and allowed full integration. Anyone that doesn't fall into that category should follow whatever medical guidance he or she chooses to follow. IMHO it's the lack of such sensible action that leads to the dismissive attitude of guidelines and rules issued.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Lurker

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #441 on: June 21, 2020, 11:38:03 AM »
But why does my mask bother you? (not you, the next guy)
Why was I heckled out of a farbrenen yesterday for wearing one?
That's the attitude I'm afraid will start the new wave

This, 1000 times this. This has been bothering me for a little while now, and I've been trying to find a good way to say it without sounding hypocritical.

I know I've posted a lot on the DDF Coronavirus board, to the point where people more or less know what I'm going to say when they see my name pop up. I've used some strong language at times, and I've been called out for using rhetoric that may have been shaming or guilt-laying, so I'm about to type this, I know I may be guilty of setting a double standard. I beg you to ignore the messenger in this case and just take the message at face value.

Please, please don't shame someone into lowering the safety standards they've taken upon themselves. Unfortunately, it has become extremely prevalent, and @gozalim's experience is far from the exception. I've had friends reach out privately to reassure themselves that they are not the only ones still not going to a maskless minyan or kiddush club. I've seen precautions abandoned by very high-risk individuals because of peer pressure. I've seen spouses made to feel uncomfortable for supporting their partner's desire to be more stringent than their community. I've seen rabbis pressured to lower standards in communities, causing people to put themselves in situations where they are taking risks they aren't comfortable with in order to avoid being cut off or missing out. The language used may not even be malicious. If someone hears the same "joke" about their standards a few too many times, they become uncomfortable exhibiting those standards in public. This leads to them cutting themselves off from otherwise beneficial interactions, or dropping the standards just to make the comments go away. Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, please don't discourage others from trying to be as safe as possible.
Tick tock

Offline ExGingi

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #442 on: June 21, 2020, 11:42:01 AM »
The first step would be offering an explanation as to how those who haven't gotten Covid yet, are protected from it? So far your argument as I see it is that you don't understand it either, but even though everything we know about this virus strongly suggests they are at risk, since you haven't seen a spike in the last few weeks, it must be over even if you don't understand why, and can offer no reasoning why it may not surge again soon.
Interesting interpretation of what I've been saying.

While I believe that those that haven't gotten COVID-19 yet are more protected in a place like Crown Heights, Williamsburg and Boro Park, as a large portion of the population already had it and are not spreading it (go back to the early explanations and videos about herd immunity), I think they should definitely be more cautious (especially if they don't think that they have been previously extensively exposed around Purim time).

It will take years before there is sufficient evidence that asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic Covid carriers don't have long term health impacts ch"v.
First thing that comes to mind when I read that is the Gemara in Sota 13a:
עד דאתי נפתלי מארעא דמצרים, יהא אבי אבא מוטל בבזיון?
What exactly are you proposing until we get the years of (what you consider) sufficient evidence you are seeking? Are you proposing the same kind of approach to vaccines?

In fact the data about relapses would suggest those who already contact Covid, like yourself, should be even more careful with their health (eat healthy, exercise cautiously, get vitamin D exposure, etc).
Sources?

Reinforces my theory that the reason we aren't noticing a spike in NY is because those who aren't being careful now weren't being careful early on & got it already, and those who were careful early on & didn't get it yet are still being careful.

Not sure how your theory gets reinforced. I was careful early on, and still got it, and I'm not careful now (other than if there's someone around that hasn't had it).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #443 on: June 21, 2020, 11:49:03 AM »
I'm ashamed in myself that I'm bored enough to keep arguing but

How long should we wait until some here are convinced that our community is safe?

I think they should definitely be more cautious (especially if they don't think that they have been previously extensively exposed around Purim time).
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline ExGingi

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #444 on: June 21, 2020, 12:08:10 PM »
Wouldn’t you first need to introduce a highly infectious person into a similar sized crowd to see what would happen?

So is it a superspreader person or superspreader even (or both) that is the key component? How would one identify a superspreader person?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gozalim

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #445 on: June 21, 2020, 12:09:26 PM »
Looks like 770 will be demanding masks for reopening.
Though choice for @ExGingi

Online yaakov35

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #446 on: June 21, 2020, 12:12:02 PM »
So is it a superspreader person or superspreader even (or both) that is the key component? How would one identify a superspreader person?
Extra long beard

Offline ExGingi

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #447 on: June 21, 2020, 12:14:59 PM »
Looks like 770 will be demanding masks for reopening.
Though choice for @ExGingi

Notice just went out that 770 will reopen as of Monday from 6am to 10pm for up to 250 people and masks will be required.

Not a tough choice for me at all. I will be back in 770 on a daily basis. If it's something I need to wear that frequently, I'll probably figure out something more usable.

If masks are required so that it doesn't get shut down by authorities, then they will keep on requiring it.  Though my guess is that enforcement will be lax. Other than Shabbos I'm sure no-pone will be checking for occupancy by no more than 250. On Shabbos I'm not sure what they will do, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's no counting.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gozalim

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #448 on: June 21, 2020, 12:16:04 PM »
And I'm not even talking about the silent-shaming/dirty looks/questioning 2 hours before that. Just the outright yelling/cursing/heckling that said what everyone else was thinking

Offline ExGingi

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #449 on: June 21, 2020, 12:18:42 PM »
And I'm not even talking about the silent-shaming/dirty looks/questioning 2 hours before that. Just the outright yelling/cursing/heckling that said what everyone else was thinking

Are you sure? Or is it a case of ונהי בעינינו כחגבים and therefore וכן היינו בעיניהם?

I see no justification for that. Yes, people wearing masks are the exception rather than the rule in the community. I would guess most get asked in surprise if they didn't have any symptoms. But their own mask wearing is respected, as well as more mask compliance around if indeed a person that hasn't had symptoms is present.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan