Author Topic: yeshivas that are open  (Read 57007 times)

Online aygart

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2020, 09:00:40 PM »
Aiva is currently the most overused and abused halacha around
Everytime a goy doesn't like your mitzvos or passes laws against them you stop doing them?
There is a difference between him getting angry about not saving a goy and not doing mitzvos because he doesn't like mitzvos
As an odom choshuv pointed out maybe we should start eating neveilos because PETA doesn't like shechita
Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chinagel

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2020, 09:16:23 PM »
Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is.
Care to explain the similarity?

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2020, 09:30:48 PM »
Care to explain the similarity?

This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
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Offline mgarfin

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2020, 09:43:12 PM »
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.

Law? Backyard  with social distancing it's against the law in New Jersey

In New York up until chol hamoed shul are allowed to schedule service. currently they are allowed to be open but aren't allowed to schedule service

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2020, 09:43:55 PM »
Law? Backyard  with social distancing it's against the law in New Jersey

In New York up until chol hamoed shul are allowed to schedule service. currently they are allowed to be open but aren't allowed to schedule service

And this has what to do with opening a school?
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Offline ari3

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2020, 09:44:31 PM »
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
This is disobeying laws that were instituted for public safety that at this point have as much to do with politics as with safety. If there was a safety issue why aren't we hearing about a spike in cases in these communities.

There is no way "to figure out how to do it like everybody else". Just like most small businesses are suffering because there is no way to "figure it out" so are bochurim and yeshivos suffering. There is no way to operate a yeshiva under lockdown just like you can't operate a clothing store under lockdown. No, phone or zoom classes is not a functioning yeshiva. Ask any mechanech trying teach right now' ask any kollel yungerman trying to learn now.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2020, 09:44:42 PM »
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.

If the law does not allowed you to put up a sukah (like Montreal) are you פטור?

Offline mgarfin

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2020, 09:45:49 PM »
And this has what to do with opening a school?

Avia was used in Lakewood long before schools. It was used in reasoning for disallowing backyard minyonim

Offline chinagel

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2020, 09:47:17 PM »
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
I wasn't asking about the law, just about aiva.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2020, 09:48:30 PM »


If there was a safety issue why aren't we hearing about a spike in cases in these communities.

The first time around seems to have taken 2 months to spike from what we now know.

Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2020, 09:52:38 PM »
I wasn't asking about the law, just about aiva.

No, you asked for this to be explained:
Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is.

The reason it's not just "something they don't like" is because it's illegal, whereas not shaking a woman's hand, or putting on tefilin on a plane, or eating shechted meat are all legal, but some people just don't like it.
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Offline chinagel

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2020, 09:53:55 PM »
No, you asked for this to be explained:
The reason it's not just "something they don't like" is because it's illegal, whereas not shaking a woman's hand, or putting on tefilin on a plane, or eating shechted meat are all legal, but some people just don't like it.
Look what that post was a response to.\
Aiva is currently the most overused and abused halacha around
Everytime a goy doesn't like your mitzvos or passes laws against them you stop doing them?
There is a difference between him getting angry about not saving a goy and not doing mitzvos because he doesn't like mitzvos
As an odom choshuv pointed out maybe we should start eating neveilos because PETA doesn't like shechita
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:57:15 PM by chinagel »

Offline Yard sale

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2020, 09:54:32 PM »
This isn't you doing nothing wrong and the guy just doesn't like your mitzvos. This is you violating a law that is equally imposed on everyone in the name of public safety. This isn't an "Aiva" thing. This is crapping on the law because you think you're different. Learning Torah is important? 100%. Figure out another way to do it just like everybody else.
It is not equally imposed. Exceptions are carved out for essentials that people can’t live without. By the non-Jews that includes grocery, home improvement centers, and beaches. Religious observance is way down on their list. If the general public was into religious services to the degree they are into their gardening, home improvement projects, and Memorial Day trip to the beach, you can bet that religious services would be prioritized because it would be politically untenable not to do so.

That being said aiva is not a catch all. The first siman in shulchan aruch says one should persist and not be embarrassed from those making fun of him performing mitzvos. Yet we know that one is allowed to put on shoes on tisha be’av when he goes in non Jewish areas where he will be made fun of for going barefoot.

The answer would seem to be that if the non Jews are making fun of the mitzvah being performed one should ignore it, but if the non Jews simply make fun of the Jews lack of shoes not because it is a mitzvah that can be taken into consideration. Similarly, if the aiva is that the non Jews don’t like the fact that Jews are doing mitzvos that is not something that should stop us. On the contrary, that can sometimes be considered shas hashmad requiring more sacrifice to keep doing the mitzvos. However when the not Jews have aiva not because the Jew is doing a mitzvah but because of a legitimate concern, even if it is misplaced and incorrect, that would be aiva and must be taken into account.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2020, 09:57:17 PM »
This is disobeying laws that were instituted for public safety that at this point have as much to do with politics as with safety. If there was a safety issue why aren't we hearing about a spike in cases in these communities.

There is no way "to figure out how to do it like everybody else". Just like most small businesses are suffering because there is no way to "figure it out" so are bochurim and yeshivos suffering. There is no way to operate a yeshiva under lockdown just like you can't operate a clothing store under lockdown. No, phone or zoom classes is not a functioning yeshiva. Ask any mechanech trying teach right now' ask any kollel yungerman trying to learn now.

We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
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Offline chinagel

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2020, 09:58:02 PM »
We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
What are your views based on?

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2020, 10:01:42 PM »
What are your views based on?
Mine are based on what I have seen from my rabbeim and they told me that they saw it with theirs.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2020, 10:02:32 PM »
Look what that post was a response to.\

Yes... he gave examples of things that are legal, but just reflect poorly on the Jew in the eyes of the goyim. The response: "Calling this something that they don't like is simply ridiculous and shows how misplaced this argument is." Because they are not equal comparisons. As explained above.
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Offline chinagel

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2020, 10:02:59 PM »
Mine are based on what I have seen from my rabbeim and they told me that they saw it with theirs.
What are your views? Re: Opening when it's against the law.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2020, 10:03:46 PM »
What are your views based on?

The piskei dinim of every Lubavitcher Rov and Beis Din. And I understand that others will have different views, which is why
We have very different views on what's acceptable al pi Torah when it comes to violating government laws. We'll have to leave it at that...
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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2020, 10:03:51 PM »
Look what that post was a response to.\
Yes and I was pointing out how the comparison is nonsensical. The aiva over here is not at all the way he wss describing. It was a bunch of purple getting reckless with lives and putting others in danger
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