Author Topic: yeshivas that are open  (Read 58106 times)

Offline biobook

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #220 on: May 25, 2020, 07:17:23 PM »
Anyone should be able to understand that the risk to young healthy people is negligible.

Read this description of a 20-year old who had mild covid-19 symptoms in March, a positive antibody test in April, and was hospitalized in May with the covid-related inflammatory disease recently described in children.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/mis-c-coronavirus-children.html

So there may be health consequences that don't show up till two months after infection. 
Might there be other health consequences after 6 months? 

Hmmm... Let me look that up.... 

Oh, never mind, I'll just ask here:  Did you have covid-19 six months ago?  Any lingering symptoms?

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #221 on: May 25, 2020, 07:23:56 PM »
Read this description of a 20-year old who had mild covid-19 symptoms in March, a positive antibody test in April, and was hospitalized in May with the covid-related inflammatory disease recently described in children.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/mis-c-coronavirus-children.html

So there may be health consequences that don't show up till two months after infection. 
Might there be other health consequences after 6 months? 

Hmmm... Let me look that up.... 

Oh, never mind, I'll just ask here:  Did you have covid-19 six months ago?  Any lingering symptoms?
Does that mean that someone in that situation should try to avoid exposure? Or just that they shouldn't assume they are out of the woods?
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Offline biobook

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #222 on: May 25, 2020, 07:39:18 PM »
Does that mean that someone in that situation should try to avoid exposure? Or just that they shouldn't assume they are out of the woods?

It means that when a novel disease appears, everything about it is unknown.  We shouldn't pretend that we know that the risks to young people are negligible, when all of humanity has had a mere 5 months to study the disease. 

In general, I would think that טוב לאדם שלא נחלה, משנחלה
If I hadn't caught it, I would make every effort to avoid getting covid.
If I had covid and recovered, I would still make every effort to avoid re-infection.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #223 on: May 25, 2020, 07:39:54 PM »
Read this description of a 20-year old who had mild covid-19 symptoms in March, a positive antibody test in April, and was hospitalized in May with the covid-related inflammatory disease recently described in children.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/opinion/mis-c-coronavirus-children.html

So there may be health consequences that don't show up till two months after infection. 
Might there be other health consequences after 6 months? 

Hmmm... Let me look that up.... 

Oh, never mind, I'll just ask here:  Did you have covid-19 six months ago?  Any lingering symptoms?
There are always things we don't know, you can't live in fear all your life.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline simple26

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #224 on: May 25, 2020, 07:54:00 PM »
I think it's very likely more people were prescribed anxiety medications that usual, although I don't have any data to back it up.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-people-are-taking-drugs-for-anxiety-and-insomnia-and-doctors-are-worried-11590411600

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I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #226 on: May 25, 2020, 08:17:36 PM »
There are always things we don't know, you can't live in fear all your life.

You're right, there are always things we don't know, and we have to make decisions in life without perfect information about how to proceed. 

People differ in how they make those decisions.  Some ignore the lack of information, and quickly make what seems the best choice.  Others prefer to move more slowly and gather more information before deciding. 

The slow-moving, information-gatherers here are not necessarily scaredy cats suffering from acute anxiety.  They just take a different approach towards decision-making.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #227 on: May 25, 2020, 08:24:57 PM »
now that's worrisome.

Puh-leaze. Can you stop hiding behind other people's anxiety? This isn't about saving other people's mental health. You just don't think this is a pandemic or any bigger risk than driving a car. That's as far as this argument goes. It's not even the flu, it's the common cold. Just life as usual.
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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #228 on: May 25, 2020, 08:30:15 PM »
Puh-leaze. Can you stop hiding behind other people's anxiety? This isn't about saving other people's mental health. You just don't think this is a pandemic or any bigger risk than driving a car. That's as far as this argument goes. It's not even the flu, it's the common cold. Just life as usual.
You missed the very important caveat, "for young healthy people". This discussion is not about what people should do to protect others, it's about young healthy people who are scared of getting the virus.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #229 on: May 25, 2020, 08:35:50 PM »
You're right, there are always things we don't know, and we have to make decisions in life without perfect information about how to proceed. 

People differ in how they make those decisions.  Some ignore the lack of information, and quickly make what seems the best choice.  Others prefer to move more slowly and gather more information before deciding. 

The slow-moving, information-gatherers here are not necessarily scaredy cats suffering from acute anxiety.  They just take a different approach towards decision-making.
Your posts make my day :)
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #230 on: May 25, 2020, 09:30:08 PM »
"שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור”
Life is about taking risks. Most of us on occasion speed or drive in the snow to a relatives close chasunah. I’ve done it. It was a major storm and pretty harrowing but I wasn’t going to miss my sisters chasunah! Some of us will admit to driving an all nighter when we are sleep deprived if the need is urgent (some will do so even for a vacation trip) despite some risk to ourselves and others.For hundreds of years many Jews took the risk of putting them and their entire families on ships to take them to lands where there were better parnassa or learning and davening opportunities. And those overseas voyages were risky. Many ships capsized. Every time I go into Manhattan or drive on the Belt I feel like I’m taking a risk to myself and others.

Waiting to daven in shul until the first night of slichos when the last positive individual has tested negative does not seem to be a reasonable approach. But neither is davening in a minyan full of seniors in a location that is still seeing significant spread. This is not the flu and this is not a completely negligible risk.

There has to be some reasonable middle ground. Not everyone is going to agree where that middle ground is. To me the “who knows what we don’t know about this virus” approach seems to be too risk averse a standard for the general population. Could those infected get reinfected. Could antibodies not proffer immunity? Could some mysterious new manifestation affect 50,000 children? It’s possible. But that’s not indicated by current information.

Could I send my daughter to Israel only to have Iran attack with chemical weapons in an all out war? That’s not off the table.שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור.

We ought to be taking reasonable precautions, and reasonable depends on many factors. Older, immunocompromised people in a location with active spread need to take far more precaution. Younger healthy individuals in an area where the virus is not currently active; much less. Could there be a new wave? Could there be scary unknowns? That’s life.

Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. I’m not averse to risk and I stayed home from shul early on. That was a clearly in reasonable risk based on clear indicators that were there for all to see. Those who ignored the clear warning signs were foolhardy. That’s not where we’re holding now in most communities. As traumatized as many are about the heavy loss of life we have seen- and rightfully so-there has to be some degree of normal risk acceptance. No, it is not valid to say if one person   (or 10 people) somewhere in the world will lose a family member then it is wrong to open up. That is not normal risk avoidance. It is simply not rational. We can disagree on how to define what exactly is. But it has got to be reasonable.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #231 on: May 25, 2020, 09:35:22 PM »
"שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור”
Life is about taking risks. Most of us on occasion speed or drive in the snow to a relatives close chasunah. I’ve done it. It was a major storm and pretty harrowing but I wasn’t going to miss my sisters chasunah! Some of us will admit to driving an all nighter when we are sleep deprived if the need is urgent (some will do so even for a vacation trip) despite some risk to ourselves and others.For hundreds of years many Jews took the risk of putting them and their entire families on ships to take them to lands where there were better parnassa or learning and davening opportunities. And those overseas voyages were risky. Many ships capsized. Every time I go into Manhattan or drive on the Belt I feel like I’m taking a risk to myself and others.

Waiting to daven in shul until the first night of slichos when the last positive individual has tested negative does not seem to be a reasonable approach. But neither is davening in a minyan full of seniors in a location that is still seeing significant spread. This is not the flu and this is not a completely negligible risk.

There has to be some reasonable middle ground. Not everyone is going to agree where that middle ground is. To me the “who knows what we don’t know about this virus” approach seems to be too risk averse a standard for the general population. Could those infected get reinfected. Could antibodies not proffer immunity? Could some mysterious new manifestation affect 50,000 children? It’s possible. But that’s not indicated by current information.

Could I send my daughter to Israel only to have Iran attack with chemical weapons in an all out war? That’s not off the table.שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור.

We ought to be taking reasonable precautions, and reasonable depends on many factors. Older, immunocompromised people in a location with active spread need to take far more precaution. Younger healthy individuals in an area where the virus is not currently active; much less. Could there be a new wave? Could there be scary unknowns? That’s life.

Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. I’m not averse to risk and I stayed home from shul early on. That was a clearly in reasonable risk based on clear indicators that were there for all to see. Those who ignored the clear warning signs were foolhardy. That’s not where we’re holding now in most communities. As traumatized as many are about the heavy loss of life we have seen- and rightfully so-there has to be some degree of normal risk acceptance. No, it is not valid to say if one person   (or 10 people) somewhere in the world will lose a family member then it is wrong to open up. That is not normal risk avoidance. It is simply not rational. We can disagree on how to define what exactly is. But it has got to be reasonable.
Very well said, this is exactly what I've been saying, you just explained it much better.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2020, 09:37:46 PM »
Wow, @Yard sale couldn't have said it any better.

Obviously opinions will vary within that spectrum, but I definitely like the way you compartmentalized the argument.
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Offline S209

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #233 on: May 25, 2020, 10:10:32 PM »
"שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור”
Life is about taking risks. Most of us on occasion speed or drive in the snow to a relatives close chasunah. I’ve done it. It was a major storm and pretty harrowing but I wasn’t going to miss my sisters chasunah! Some of us will admit to driving an all nighter when we are sleep deprived if the need is urgent (some will do so even for a vacation trip) despite some risk to ourselves and others.For hundreds of years many Jews took the risk of putting them and their entire families on ships to take them to lands where there were better parnassa or learning and davening opportunities. And those overseas voyages were risky. Many ships capsized. Every time I go into Manhattan or drive on the Belt I feel like I’m taking a risk to myself and others.

Waiting to daven in shul until the first night of slichos when the last positive individual has tested negative does not seem to be a reasonable approach. But neither is davening in a minyan full of seniors in a location that is still seeing significant spread. This is not the flu and this is not a completely negligible risk.

There has to be some reasonable middle ground. Not everyone is going to agree where that middle ground is. To me the “who knows what we don’t know about this virus” approach seems to be too risk averse a standard for the general population. Could those infected get reinfected. Could antibodies not proffer immunity? Could some mysterious new manifestation affect 50,000 children? It’s possible. But that’s not indicated by current information.

Could I send my daughter to Israel only to have Iran attack with chemical weapons in an all out war? That’s not off the table.שמר רוח לא יזרע, וראה בעבים לא יקצור.

We ought to be taking reasonable precautions, and reasonable depends on many factors. Older, immunocompromised people in a location with active spread need to take far more precaution. Younger healthy individuals in an area where the virus is not currently active; much less. Could there be a new wave? Could there be scary unknowns? That’s life.

Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. I’m not averse to risk and I stayed home from shul early on. That was a clearly in reasonable risk based on clear indicators that were there for all to see. Those who ignored the clear warning signs were foolhardy. That’s not where we’re holding now in most communities. As traumatized as many are about the heavy loss of life we have seen- and rightfully so-there has to be some degree of normal risk acceptance. No, it is not valid to say if one person   (or 10 people) somewhere in the world will lose a family member then it is wrong to open up. That is not normal risk avoidance. It is simply not rational. We can disagree on how to define what exactly is. But it has got to be reasonable.
I agree with just about your entire post. Well said.

One thing that detracts from perfectly valid arguments is a poor analogy. Many here have been making them. Please don’t compare an active threat of a circulating novel deadly virus which has ALREADY claimed the lives of tens of thousands including many in the community with the remote possibility of a war breaking out. You can compare it to a war in EXISTENCE that has claimed lives and its a question whether it has abated enough to return.

The question currently is not about getting reinfected or a mysterious unknown disease. It is about people who have not been infected willfully risking themselves and others while a virus with no innate immunity is circulating with the potential for a full on deadly second wave, which has happened in many past pandemics and in all likelihood IS going to happen. It’s NOT like driving in the snow, through Manhattan, or on the Belt.

The biggest thing holding me back from lowering caution more is that the very same people who ignored and derided the risk early on are doubling down harder on the supposed lack of risk now. @Yard sale, if you stopped attending Shul before Purim due to perceived risk but now feel the risk has passed, you are an anomaly. Ashrecha. Most on here who deny any risk factor today called it the flu and stuck to their guns as people dropped all around them.

Once again, I definitely think the current risk in my community right now is far lower than it was due to a combination of factors. I also strongly support lowering or removing many of the restrictions in place.

Very well said, this is exactly what I've been saying, you just explained it much better.
Not quite
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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2020, 10:36:44 PM »

One thing that detracts from perfectly valid arguments is a poor analogy. Many here have been making them. Please don’t compare an active threat of a circulating novel deadly virus which has ALREADY claimed the lives of tens of thousands including many in the community with the remote possibility of a war breaking out. You can compare it to a war in EXISTENCE that has claimed lives and its a question whether it has abated enough to return.
Are you saying tens of thousands of young healthy people died?

Not quite
You've got your head stuck so deep, you can't see what's going on around you.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2020, 10:40:27 PM »



Prior to Purim there was plenty of indication that there was a serious risk out there. I, and many others on DDF raised the alarm as soon as the attorney was diagnosed. .
Question.

If you would now hear about one new diagnosis within the frum community who them spread it to 10 people, would that be the same or different from that attorney and why

Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2020, 10:40:58 PM »
Are you saying tens of thousands of young healthy people died?
You've got your head stuck so deep, you can't see what's going on around you.
Yeah, you’re right. Anyone being cautious just needs anxiety medication and should never drive cars because it’s exactly the same thing. And it’s a liberal hoax to take down Trump when it’s really just the flu.
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Offline Dan

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2020, 10:43:10 PM »
Question.

If you would now hear about one new diagnosis within the frum community who them spread it to 10 people, would that be the same or different from that attorney and why


New diagnosis in my community just shut down our Shavuos plans. C'est la vie.
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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #238 on: May 25, 2020, 10:48:48 PM »
Yeah, you’re right. Anyone being cautious just needs anxiety medication and should never drive cars because it’s exactly the same thing. And it’s a liberal hoax to take down Trump when it’s really just the flu.
You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between young healthy people and people who are at high risk.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: yeshivas that are open
« Reply #239 on: May 25, 2020, 10:51:45 PM »
You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between young healthy people and people who are at high risk.
You seem to have trouble understanding that young people ARE at significant risk relative to other illnesses and can be carriers of a deadly virus to other more vulnerable people.
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