Did you cancel your cleaning help?

[Lurker]

Maybe the intent was exactly as @Lurker describes. The thing is words matter. You can't just call it one way.

This is a good perspective, although it’s not an excuse for the wording.

I still want to know which wording you guys have an issue with. You both don't argue the context. How do you get that point across in any way that is more PC than the way they put it? They called out no race, no community, no group of people. They said

Lakewood Township has many different communities. Right now, the curve of infection in some Lakewood Township communities is behind our frum community by several weeks and the rates of new infection and spread of disease is still high.

Which race was called out? Which community? How do you word this better?

[CountValentine]

You did, as a devil's advocate. It didn't fly.

Did you miss the part you quoted me as saying "I don't believe any of this but showing how easy it is to twist this when being dishonest and reverting back to your tribe."?
I was showing how you can twist it the exact same thing you are trying to do here.

[Lurker]

Did you miss the part you quoted me as saying "I don't believe any of this but showing how easy it is to twist this when being dishonest and reverting back to your tribe."?
I was showing how you can twist it the exact same thing you are trying to do here.

I literally said, "as a devil's advocate." I didn't say you believed it. I just said that you couldn't put "context" to the mayor's comment to make it ok.

ETA: devil's advocate dĕv′əlz
n.   One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position

[CountValentine]

I literally said, "as a devil's advocate." I didn't say you believed it. I just said that you couldn't put "context" to the mayor's comment to make it ok.

Ok fair enough. The argument that I made to show how you can twist things does past mustard. You might not agree but that is a good thing. 

[CountValentine]

I still want to know which wording you guys have an issue with. You both don't argue the context. How do you get that point across in any way that is more PC than the way they put it? They called out no race, no community, no group of people. They saidWhich race was called out? Which community? How do you word this better?

Wait, you leave out the racist line and want to ask multiple questions? 

[Lurker]

Wait, you leave out the racist line and want to ask multiple questions? 

How many times do I have to ask for someone to point out what they thought was racist?! Post the line you have an issue with!

[CountValentine]

How many times do I have to ask for someone to point out what they thought was racist?! Post the line you have an issue with!

Read one line more than what you posted.

[Lurker]

Read one line more than what you posted.

Here it is:

No one should have their cleaning help come back into their homes this time due to persistent rates of infection in other communities in Lakewood.

Show me the racism.

[CountValentine]

Show me the racism.

I can't show you something when you don't want to see it. You see absolutely nothing there that could be considered racist?

[Lurker]

I can't show you something when you don't want to see it. You see absolutely nothing there that could be considered racist?

LMAO!!! How many of these do you suppose you just violated?

The 10 Commandments of Logic

1. Thou shall not attack the person’s character, but the argument. (Ad hominem)

2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person’s argument in order to make them easier to attack. (Straw man fallacy)

3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (Hasty generalization)

4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true. (Begging the question)

5. Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause. (Post Hoc/False cause)

6. Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities. (False dichotomy)

7. Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false. (Ad ignorantum)

8. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal)

9. Thou shall not assume “this” follows “that” when it has no logical connection. (Non sequitur)

10. Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, therefore it must be true. (Bandwagon fallacy)

[CountValentine]

LMAO!!! How many of these do you suppose you just violated?

Probably all of them.
So should I take the answer to my question is a no? 
Ask others that have a problem with the wording. Maybe they will have a better chance to get you to open your eyes.

[Lurker]

Probably all of them.
So should I take the answer to my question is a no? 
Ask others that have a problem with the wording. Maybe they will have a better chance to get you to open your eyes.

No, you shouldn't take that as a no. You should answer the question.

I'd say you're better than that, but I'm not so sure. You called me a racist on a different thread and haven't responded to 2 requests to clarify why.

You have a serious double standard problem. You call others out for answering questions with questions, but it's ok when you do it. You have a problem when others resort to calling you names, but it's ok when you throw your labels around. You pride yourself on your intellectual honesty, but hide behind ambiguities when an argument isn't going your way.

Let me say what you won't. You see the term "cleaning help," and you see "dirty infected minorities," and because you see that, they become racist. In your mind you're right, because you've talked to other religious Jews who were racist on DDF, so you know what they all mean when they say these things. How about that? We found another double standard.

[CountValentine]

No, you shouldn't take that as a no. You should answer the question.

I'd say you're better than that, but I'm not so sure. You called me a racist on a different thread and haven't responded to 2 requests to clarify why.

You have a serious double standard problem. You call others out for answering questions with questions, but it's ok when you do it. You have a problem when others resort to calling you names, but it's ok when you throw your labels around. You pride yourself on your intellectual honesty, but hide behind ambiguities when an argument isn't going your way.

Let me say what you won't. You see the term "cleaning help," and you see "dirty infected minorities," and because you see that, they become racist. In your mind you're right, because you've talked to other religious Jews who were racist on DDF, so you know what they all mean when they say these things. How about that? We found another double standard.

LMAO!!! How many of these do you suppose you just violated?

The 10 Commandments of Logic

1. Thou shall not attack the person’s character, but the argument. (Ad hominem)

2. Thou shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person’s argument in order to make them easier to attack. (Straw man fallacy)

3. Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (Hasty generalization)

4. Thou shall not argue thy position by assuming one of its premises is true. (Begging the question)

5. Thou shall not claim that because something occurred before, it must be the cause. (Post Hoc/False cause)

6. Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities. (False dichotomy)

7. Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false. (Ad ignorantum)

8. Thou shall not lay the burden of proof onto him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal)

9. Thou shall not assume “this” follows “that” when it has no logical connection. (Non sequitur)

10. Thou shall not claim that because a premise is popular, therefore it must be true. (Bandwagon fallacy)

[CountValentine]

Ok that was my JS response so now let me give you a real response.

I'd say you're better than that, but I'm not so sure. You called me a racist on a different thread and haven't responded to 2 requests to clarify why.

Where?

You have a serious double standard problem. You call others out for answering questions with questions, but it's ok when you do it.

No it is not ok when I do it. When you see me do it (yes I do it) then you should call me out.

You have a problem when others resort to calling you names, but it's ok when you throw your labels around. 

I have and will continued to be called names. Now if you want to call me a POS as one member has at least have it be for something I actually said and not something you assumed I meant.

You pride yourself on your intellectual honesty, but hide behind ambiguities when an argument isn't going your way.

Going to have to disagree about hiding behind anything.

Let me say what you won't. You see the term "cleaning help," and you see "dirty infected minorities," and because you see that, they become racist.

I will be honest that this one hurts. See if I believed that then my wife would be a "dirty infected minorities". She had her own house cleaning service for a few years. It is hard work and I respect those who do it.

In your mind you're right, because you've talked to other religious Jews who were racist on DDF, so you know what they all mean when they say these things. How about that? We found another double standard.

Well you are right that there are those that are racist on DDF. I would say the PM's I receive have a bigger impact on how I view things. No I don't know what they all mean. When they say certain things, that is why I ask and not assume. When I ask, that is when I get in trouble.

Hopefully I addressed all your points.

[Lurker]

Where?

Let me just say that I don't believe you don't know where or what I'm referring to. You pride yourself on reading every post. If what I said bothered you enough to call me a racist, not only would it be somewhat memorable, but the 2 times I asked for clarification wouldn't have gone unnoticed. But here you go:

Racist. 

Huh?

Don't want to hijack yet another thread... but it took you minutes to brand me a racist, and it's been hours and no explanation as to why...

No it is not ok when I do it. When you see me do it (yes I do it) then you should call me out.

I have, multiple times. In fact, I just did upthread, and you dodged.

I have and will continued to be called names. Now if you want to call me a POS as one member has at least have it be for something I actually said and not something you assumed I meant.

I have not called you any names, nor do I have any desire to. You still haven't addressed the double standard. You call names. That's not ok.

Going to have to disagree about hiding behind anything.

You're literally avoiding answering the question and hiding behind ambiguities on this very topic. You refuse to say what's racist about the post, instead saying that if I can't see it, you can't help me, and that maybe others can point it out.

I will be honest that this one hurts. See if I believed that then my wife would be a "dirty infected minorities". She had her own house cleaning service for a few years. It is hard work and I respect those who do it.

I didn't say you believed that. I don't think you're a racist. I think that when you see frum Jews write that, you assume it's code, because they are all racists.

Well you are right that there are those that are racist on DDF. I would say the PM's I receive have a bigger impact on how I view things. No I don't know what they all mean. When they say certain things, that is why I ask and not assume. When I ask, that is when I get in trouble.

You're still not addressing the double standard, you're justifying it. You look at my posts (among others) through glasses tinted by others' racism. That's not ok. G-d forbid anyone assume anything about you. You're very quick to call them out.

Hopefully I addressed all your points.

You didn't. I'm still waiting for you to address what exactly you found racist. I dissected it about as much as I can, and all you have to say is, "I can't show you something if you don't want to see it." This is the height of intellectual dishonesty. You haven't even made an attempt.

[CountValentine]

We can go back and forth all day but I have no desire to. I would like to point out a few things.

I have not called you any names, nor do I have any desire to. You still haven't addressed the double standard. You call names. That's not ok.

To say someone sees "dirty infected minorities" based on your own assumption is not name calling it is worse.

G-d forbid anyone assume anything about you. You're very quick to call them out.

I would need to hire ten people to point out all the assumptions about me. Just look at the assumptions you have made.

Now let me try one last time to point out what was wrong with the article.

"Lakewood Township has many different communities. Right now, the curve of infection in some Lakewood Township communities is behind our frum community by several weeks and the rates of new infection and spread of disease is still high. No one should have their cleaning help come back into their homes this time due to persistent rates of infection in other communities in Lakewood."

No cleaning help should come into the homes because of the virus, PERIOD. Not because of "infection rate in other communities" but because of infection rate in "ALL" communities. Not you don't need to agree with what I am saying but if you don't see what I am saying then there is nothing else I can say that is going to help you.   

I am not going to assume anything but instead ask you. Why do you keep harping on me when others have said it is racist?

[Lurker]

To say someone sees "dirty infected minorities" based on your own assumption is not name calling it is worse.

Hey now, let's be fair. I asked you multiple times to spell out the issue so there would be no assumptions necessary. You repeatedly asked me to make my own assumptions.

No cleaning help should come into the homes because of the virus, PERIOD. Not because of "infection rate in other communities" but because of infection rate in "ALL" communities. Not you don't need to agree with what I am saying but if you don't see what I am saying then there is nothing else I can say that is going to help you.

As much as words matter, facts matter. The fact of the matter is, in the frum community of Lakewood, the rate of new infections is pretty low. Something you can personally can verify from reading DDF: many, many people in Lakewood believe that the danger to their community has passed, since "we all had it already and no one new is getting sick." Another fact: in some of the non-frum communities surrounding Lakewood township, there is currently a high rate of infection. (The post didn't say "infection rate in other communities." It said "in some communities.") There's also the fact that virtually all of the cleaning help comes from outside the frum community. These are the facts.

Now for the words. The excuse given for some of the actions by individuals in the frum community is a lack of information. This post is giving them that information in a factual way, and in a way that is relevant to it's intended audience. Even ignoring the first part of the post, which very clearly discouraged the community from socializing between themselves, there is nothing racist about pointing out that even something many deem essential should be avoided, because of the facts at hand. To say "ALL communities," as you suggest, would be factually incorrect and would cause many people to dismiss the message in it's entirety as fear-mongering.

I am not going to assume anything but instead ask you. Why do you keep harping on me when others have said it is racist?

Read the thread. I responded to @S209's original comment, asking for the racism. He declined to clarify. I then posted @ no one, claiming people were ignoring the first two-thirds of the post. After that, I responded solely to your posts, because you were the only one who even attempted to answer me. I have no intention of harping on you, there's just no one else who's willing to stand up and justify their claims of racism. I can't argue with someone who doesn't stand behind his opinion.