Author Topic: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition  (Read 162838 times)

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #940 on: December 04, 2020, 02:15:41 PM »
I know of multiple classes in a Monsey school currently shut due to COVID cases. I also know a few people who’ve had COVID there in the last month.

As for BP, didn’t someone recently post something about 150 cases from a wedding?
Just cuz someone posted it here, doesn’t make it true

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #941 on: December 04, 2020, 03:21:00 PM »
Just cuz someone posted it here, doesn’t make it true
Unless it fits what you want to believe.....
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #942 on: December 04, 2020, 03:33:46 PM »
Unless it fits what you want to believe.....

Which is why אינה דומה שמיעה לראיה, and those that haven't been to the respected communities would be best advised to keep their opinions about them to themselves.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #943 on: December 04, 2020, 03:40:09 PM »
Which is why אינה דומה שמיעה לראיה, and those that haven't been to the respected communities would be best advised to keep their opinions about them to themselves.
What people see and don't see is also subject to the same rule.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #944 on: December 04, 2020, 03:44:09 PM »
I know of multiple classes in a Monsey school currently shut due to COVID cases. I also know a few people who’ve had COVID there in the last month.

As for BP, didn’t someone recently post something about 150 cases from a wedding?

CH, Williamsburg, BP, KJ, and New Square do not all have zero cases. There are cases there too but not at the levels previously experienced, no school closures that I'm aware of. He was referring to the behaviors in CH and Williamsburg and that's what I was referring to as well from observations over the past few weeks attending weddings in these other communities.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #945 on: December 05, 2020, 07:41:10 PM »
I understand. My question is, what is my actual Halachic hishtadlus? How rare is it for that to happen?
Hishtadlus is abstaining from hurting onceself. Avoiding going out and infecting others (if required) has nothing to do with Hishtadlus, it is בחירה, and is a much higher standard. Hishtadlus is subject to Emunah, Madreigos, שומר פתאים ה׳, eco.

One does Hishtadlus to earn a livelihood, because ultimately he doesn't have the power and it comes from Hashem.
One doesn't steal because he was fully granted the power of בחירה to do so.

One davens for Parnassa because Hishtadlus is a condition but not a cause.
One doesn't directly daven not to steal because it's in his power (yes I know we ask for help in overcoming the Yetzer Hara, it's a complicated topic)

Rashbi downplays the need of Hishtadlus. לא יעלה על דעת that he would allow absence of the required caution in damaging others.

The bar of not damaging others is far higher. תוספות (בבא קמא כג ע"א ועוד מקומות) "יותר יש לאדם ליזהר עצמו שלא יזיק אחרים משלא יוזק".

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #946 on: December 05, 2020, 07:59:38 PM »

The bar of not damaging others is far higher. תוספות (בבא קמא כג ע"א ועוד מקומות) "יותר יש לאדם ליזהר עצמו שלא יזיק אחרים משלא יוזק".

You're right.

Now where is any evidence or indication that people who recovered from COVID-19 present any threat to others?

For some reason the Israeli MOH doesn't believe so, and exempts COVID-19 recoverees from any quarantine requirements (and AFAIK don't put any time limit on it).

(I am aware that @S209 might not be a recoveree, my point is that there are situations where health officials see no benefit in isolation/quarantine).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:04:30 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #947 on: December 05, 2020, 08:18:05 PM »
Now where is any evidence or indication that people who recovered from COVID-19 present any threat to others?
Not sure what this has to do with my post. I didn't opine on specific thresholds, I just pointed out Hishtadlus is the wrong term here. The conversation wasn't about people who recovered from Covid, it was about somebody who exposed to Covid and never tested positive.

But to answer your question, there are plenty of documented cases of Covid Reinfection. That is definitely 'any evidence'.

I personally believe, like you, that the bulk of evidence suggests that the risk is extremely small. What the exact halachic line is I don't know, but my guess would be one isn't obligated to quarantine if he recovered from Covid 19 and was re-exposed. There is room to differentiate between quarantine, which is more onerous and not required by some public health authorities (Israel, US CDC), and wearing a mask, which is less onerous and required by those health authorities. It is quite likely not quarantining is still considered הולך כדרכו, but not wearing a mask is breaking from a required norm, and therefore necessary even if the risk of damage is minimal.

 המשנה במסכת בבא קמא (דף לב ע"א) אומרת כך:
"שנים שהיו מהלכים ברשות הרבים, אחד רץ ואחד מהלך או שהיו שניהם רצין והיזוקו זה את זה פטורין."
הגמרא במקום מבררת ומסבירה כי הפטור במקרה של אחד רץ והשני מהלך, הוא רק שמדובר בערב שבת בין השמשות, שאז הציבור כולו ממהר לסיים את מלאכתו עובר לכניסת השבת. לכן התנהגותו של הרץ אינה "משונה" והוא "רץ ברשות". לעומת זאת, ביום חול רגיל, אין זה נהוג לרוץ ברשות הרבים (וכך פוסק הרמב"ם, הלכות חובל ומזיק, פרק ו', הלכה ט'; והשולחן ערוך, חושן משפט, סימן שע"ח סעיפים ז'-ח').



What bothers me most about some of the frum attitude to Covid, is the misguided priorities. As if the 'power' of davening in a minyan/shul transcends the 'power' of actually doing what hashem wants us to do. החפץ לה׳ בעולות וזבחים משמוע בקול ה׳?

ת״ר חסידים הראשונים היו מצניעים קוצותיהם וזכוכיותיהם בתוך שדותיהן ומעמיקים להן ג׳ טפחים כדי שלא יעכב המחרישה.
רב ששת ישדי להו בנורא רבא כשדי להו בדגלת.
אמר רב יהודה האי מאן דבעי למהוי חסידא לקיים מילי דנזיקין

שולחן ערוך חושן משפט תט״ו:ג׳

(ג) מִדַּת חֲסִידוּת הוּא שֶׁיַּצְנִיעַ אָדָם קוֹצָיו וּשְׁאָר כָּל דָּבָר הַמַּזִּיק בְּמָקוֹם שֶׁלֹּא יָבֹא מֵהֶם תַּקָּלָה, כְּגוֹן שֶׁיַּשְׁלִיכֵם לַנָּהָר אוֹ יִשְׂרְפֵם.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline S209

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #948 on: December 05, 2020, 09:55:31 PM »
Unless it fits what you want to believe.....
I didn’t say I believe it, I questioned an anecdotal assertion with anecdotal evidence.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Dan

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #949 on: December 06, 2020, 02:57:33 PM »
https://collive.com/meir-zarchi-celebrates-miraculous-covid-recovery

I guess it's because I'm from a compliant OOT location, but the irony in these pictures is something else.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #950 on: December 06, 2020, 03:48:00 PM »
https://collive.com/meir-zarchi-celebrates-miraculous-covid-recovery

I guess it's because I'm from a compliant OOT location, but the irony in these pictures is something else.
That website is not something that I see, but I can only imagine what you are referring to.

I would suggest that the reason it seems ironic to you might be because the word compliant even comes to your mind.

Even people that wear masks, maintain distancing and avoid indoor crowds wouldn't dream of using such a term 'round here.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #951 on: December 06, 2020, 04:11:44 PM »
compliant OOT location
wouldn't dream of using such a term 'round here.
Kabolas Ol'niks?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #952 on: December 06, 2020, 05:24:22 PM »
Kabolas Ol'niks?

Wouldn't fly. Not when even the staunchest Rabbi stopped wearing masks in public and mingled with crowds indoors.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #954 on: December 06, 2020, 10:05:30 PM »
https://collive.com/meir-zarchi-celebrates-miraculous-covid-recovery

I guess it's because I'm from a compliant OOT location, but the irony in these pictures is something else.

I saw pictures elsewhere, what I think you're missing is that it is likely that more than 90% of participants had Covid-19 between Purim and Pesach. No one has reason to believe they are currently at risk of contracting COVID-19 or spreading it in any way.

Even the Gedalia Society has remained mum.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #955 on: December 06, 2020, 10:09:15 PM »
Wouldn't fly. Not when even the staunchest Rabbi stopped wearing masks in public and mingled with crowds indoors.
I'm saying OOT communities are more Kabalos olnik than NYC.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #956 on: December 06, 2020, 10:24:02 PM »
I'm saying OOT communities are more Kabalos olnik than NYC.

וועמענס עול?

Cuomo?

DeBlasio?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #957 on: December 06, 2020, 10:26:42 PM »
וועמענס עול?

Cuomo?

DeBlasio?
Community leadership.
Let's be real, it's not like you were listening to the C"H B"D about masks when they said in no uncertain terms to wear them. That wouldn't happen OOT.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #958 on: December 06, 2020, 10:36:02 PM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #959 on: December 06, 2020, 10:42:48 PM »
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