Author Topic: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition  (Read 109833 times)

Offline TimT

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1520 on: September 02, 2021, 08:47:08 AM »

Offline Lurker

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1521 on: September 02, 2021, 09:22:37 AM »
You thought ivermectin was scary ? Wait till people hear about this one.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/570466-brazilian-viper-venom-shows-promise-as-drug-to-combat

There has to be some way to hold media accountable in court for things like this.

The headline: Brazilian viper venom shows promise as drug to combat COVID-19

Quote from the article itself:
Quote
"We're wary about people going out to hunt the jararacussu around Brazil, thinking they're going to save the world. ... That's not it!" Puorto told Reuters. "It's not the venom itself that will cure the coronavirus."
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1522 on: September 02, 2021, 01:00:52 PM »
Maybe yes, maybe no. 
We can draw meaningful conclusions from a large sample, but you're just a single data point, so not as simple to interpret.
Could be your antibody level also reflects the intensity of your initial illness, the amount of time that passed between that illness and the vaccine, the particular vial of Moderna you got, your continued re-exposure to infected people after you recovered, the accuracy of the assay used to measure your antibodies, your own unique antibody-producing superpower, and probably a bunch of other variables I haven't thought of.
IOW, for you, your explanation has no consequences, and this one is as good as any other.  But we can't really look at what happened to you and make a generalization that people who were infected and have one dose of Moderna should expect to have the same high antibody levels that you do.

I think you are generally right, but some assumptions might be a little off, such as severity of illness, re-exposure, or antibody-producing superpowers, based on evidence.

My main argument is that rather than indiscriminately administering vaccine doses, I think it would make sense to tie the need to an antibody test. Just like Mantoux tests are used to determine whether a TB vaccine is necessary.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1523 on: September 02, 2021, 01:38:42 PM »
I think you are generally right, but some assumptions might be a little off, such as severity of illness, re-exposure, or antibody-producing superpowers, based on evidence.

My main argument is that rather than indiscriminately administering vaccine doses, I think it would make sense to tie the need to an antibody test. Just like Mantoux tests are used to determine whether a TB vaccine is necessary.
Seems very inefficient and open for fraud
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1524 on: September 02, 2021, 03:29:26 PM »
I think you are generally right, but some assumptions might be a little off, such as severity of illness, re-exposure, or antibody-producing superpowers, based on evidence.

I'm not assuming any particular variable affected you, just saying that multiple variables may affect antibody level, such as.... 

Even when a constant amount of vaccine is injected into a group of people, each individual does not produce the exact same amount of antibodies.  We can make generalizations about antibody levels in people who have been vaccinated or have recovered, but can't be as certain about the reason for any one individual's particular antibody level. 

But I'm just being pedantic here, and what I really meant to say is "You're probably right!"

Quote
My main argument is that rather than indiscriminately administering vaccine doses, I think it would make sense to tie the need to an antibody test. Just like Mantoux tests are used to determine whether a TB vaccine is necessary.

Most public health workers would agree with this.  Giving vaccines just to those who need it would not only save a lot of time and money and agmas nefesh for Americans, but also would free up vaccines that could be used in the rest of the world. 

The hurdle is producing a blood test that could accurately predict immunity to covid.  Our antibody tests aren't quite there yet, although they keep getting better, and other molecules in the blood are also being studied for this purpose.

Offline alexk.

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1525 on: September 03, 2021, 10:00:59 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Something many of us have been saying all along... How long before they bury this study? Doesn't fit the narrative...
 

Offline S209

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1526 on: September 03, 2021, 10:13:22 AM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Something many of us have been saying all along... How long before they bury this study? Doesn't fit the narrative...
“They” haven’t buried the previous versions of this study (whoever “they” is) so why would “they” bury this one? Furthermore, what standing do “many of us” have in determining whether the vaccine is more or less effective than virus induced immunity?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline alexk.

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1527 on: September 03, 2021, 10:41:34 AM »
Vaccine mandates that ignore this = "They" = a good portion of our Government and those that promote this agenda.

"Many of us" are those that see what is going on around us in our communities that had a lot of Covid and see what is really happening with with Delta. We are very communal and just like in other rounds, we generally are at the forefront of a spread for that reason ( unfortunately).

Stop dividing the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. There are 4 categories 1) No previous infection and Vaccinated 2) No previous infection and unvaccinated 3) Previous infection and Vaccinated 4) Previous infection and unvaccinated.   

When a shul in your community says that anyone over the age of 12 not vaccinated can't come to shul for Rosh Hashanah = "They".
Schools and colleges with mandates of which you cannot participate without a vaccine regardless of category = "They"

The list can go on and on...

"They" dominate the current narrative.

The MSM was all over Israel's push for and the data of the benefit of a 3rd shot. Let me know when this hits their headlines.

Offline aygart

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1528 on: September 03, 2021, 11:47:41 AM »
Vaccine mandates that ignore this = "They" = a good portion of our Government and those that promote this agenda.

"Many of us" are those that see what is going on around us in our communities that had a lot of Covid and see what is really happening with with Delta. We are very communal and just like in other rounds, we generally are at the forefront of a spread for that reason ( unfortunately).

Stop dividing the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. There are 4 categories 1) No previous infection and Vaccinated 2) No previous infection and unvaccinated 3) Previous infection and Vaccinated 4) Previous infection and unvaccinated.   

When a shul in your community says that anyone over the age of 12 not vaccinated can't come to shul for Rosh Hashanah = "They".
Schools and colleges with mandates of which you cannot participate without a vaccine regardless of category = "They"

The list can go on and on...

"They" dominate the current narrative.

The MSM was all over Israel's push for and the data of the benefit of a 3rd shot. Let me know when this hits their headlines.
I am not sure what you are getting at here. How would anyone know even anecdotally whether previous infection is better, worse, or the same as vaccination or for how long unless they did a real study of statistics or understand the underlying science?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1529 on: September 03, 2021, 11:50:14 AM »
Vaccine mandates that ignore this = "They" = a good portion of our Government and those that promote this agenda.

"Many of us" are those that see what is going on around us in our communities that had a lot of Covid and see what is really happening with with Delta. We are very communal and just like in other rounds, we generally are at the forefront of a spread for that reason ( unfortunately).

Stop dividing the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. There are 4 categories 1) No previous infection and Vaccinated 2) No previous infection and unvaccinated 3) Previous infection and Vaccinated 4) Previous infection and unvaccinated.   

When a shul in your community says that anyone over the age of 12 not vaccinated can't come to shul for Rosh Hashanah = "They".
Schools and colleges with mandates of which you cannot participate without a vaccine regardless of category = "They"

The list can go on and on...

"They" dominate the current narrative.

The MSM was all over Israel's push for and the data of the benefit of a 3rd shot. Let me know when this hits their headlines.
To your first point: I don’t understand how you could possibly have known whether naturally occurring antibodies are better or worse than vaccines.

To your second: Is it possible that the benefit of requiring vaccination for all (and thus ensuring a high level of protection in the Shul with minimum complexity and enforcement difficulty) outweighs the (relatively minor) inconvenience of taking a vaccine even if you’re already pretty well protected?

Anecdote: a friend of mine from Brooklyn told me yesterday that his coworker is currently hospitalized in serious condition for his second bout with COVID (first infection was minor). If he was vaccinated, the chance that happened would have been at least somewhat decreased (probably around 50%).
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline aygart

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1530 on: September 03, 2021, 12:00:59 PM »
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Something many of us have been saying all along... How long before they bury this study? Doesn't fit the narrative...
 

Just pointing out how you conveniently left out how that study discusses the time aspect and when immunity wanes as well as the purpose of vaccnating after infection.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1531 on: September 03, 2021, 01:20:41 PM »
https://www.newsmax.com/health/health-news/vaccine-infection-cdc/2021/09/02/id/1034866/

With an interesting headline of "CDC Study: COVID Infection Offers Protection Similar to Vaccines"

But when clicking into the study and the CNN report on it, this is not at all what the study is about. The study title is "Estimated US Infection- and Vaccine-Induced SARS-CoV-2 Seroprevalence Based on Blood Donations, July 2020-May 2021" and the headline of the section on the CNN page is "Survey: More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have immunity". The discussion is entirely about how prevalent antibodies are based on a survey of blood donations. It includes one sentence that mentions the comparison between the immunity conferred by the two. "Several large studies have shown that among individuals who are seropositive from prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, COVID-19 incidence is reduced by 80% to 95%, similar to vaccine efficacy estimates." This does not seem to be drawing any conclusion of its own about the comparison but rather mentioning it as a side point to the conclusions of this study.

Overall, it seems to be a very interesting survey.


This is the CNN writeup https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/02/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/
Survey: More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have immunity
More than 80% of Americans 16 and older have some level of immunity against the coronavirus, mostly through vaccination, a survey of blood donations indicates.
The survey, led by the CDC, also indicates that about twice as many people have been infected with the virus as have been officially counted. More than 39 million Americans have been diagnosed with coronavirus infection since the pandemic started in 2020.
The team, led by the CDC's Dr. Jefferson Jones, set out to determine how close the US might be to some kind of herd immunity -- although they do not claim to have any kind of handle on that yet.
They worked with 17 blood collection organizations working in all 50 states plus Washington, DC, and Puerto Rico to test blood covering 74% of the population. In the end, they tested about 1.4 million samples.
In July 2020, before any vaccine was available, 3.5% of samples carried antibodies to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. That rose to 11.5% by December, they reported in the medical journal JAMA. By May, 83.3% of samples had antibodies to the virus, most of them from vaccination.
And while in July 2020, blood surveillance indicated the US was only counting one infection out of every three true infections, that fell to one in two a year later.
This was all pre-Delta, the researchers caution. Plus, they didn't measure the other part of the human response -- one involving cells known as T-cells -- and one that might induce broader immunity. But knowing who has antibodies can help inform public health efforts.
"Several large studies have shown that among individuals who are seropositive from prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, COVID-19 incidence is reduced by 80% to 95%, similar to vaccine efficacy estimates," they noted.
"The study will continue until at least December 2021, and results will be made available on the CDC's website," they wrote.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline alexk.

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1532 on: September 03, 2021, 02:10:09 PM »
Sorry that I didn't have the time to address this properly. Still quite busy. However just a few quick points:

To your first point: We were all told by "science" initially that antibodies protect. The vaccine was then brought out to protect those that did not have Covid. Later, the narrative changed that everyone needs the vaccine - even if you have natural immunity. Sceptics did not buy the change in narrative. And this is proof of it. Waning immunity is a separate problem - both for vaccinated and recovered. Although recovered apparently last longer. Most reports had it the opposite way. The vaccine was better than natural immunity. That is why you have to take it. There was no proof that the vaccine would last longer than your natural immunity.

To your second point: Saying that taking the vaccine is minor inconvenience is a major understatement. Wither you believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, that is based on the individual case. Personally, I believe there is a greater risk in a 13 year old taking the shot right now than in contracting Covid. Their risk of having long term effects from a vaccine are greater than the virus itself. Would I say the same for a 70 year old? No.

Anecdote: My child had severe reflux as a baby. He was given Zantac of which every doctor we spoke to told us that it is the safest medication out there - it is given infants - even newborns-  without hesitation. And if everyone agrees that it can be given to newborns, it is pretty safe.

He took it for a few years.

This child has a nut allergy.

A few years ago a study came out that children who took Zantac as a baby had a very high percentage for having allergies - especially nut allergies.

Would I have given it to him knowing the risk of allergy? Possibly. He was in a lot of pain. I would take the chances on the allergy and it is something people have to live with.

Now it is off the market due to links to the other big "C" disease. Knowing this? Most likely not.

So don't call something safe and a "minor inconvenience" when the risks are unknown. You should be able to weigh all factors - your personal risks (current protection level, age, health, risk of exposure, risk of serious illness, etc...).   

Wish I had more time on this topic, but got things to do now...

Offline aygart

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1533 on: September 03, 2021, 02:46:38 PM »
Sorry that I didn't have the time to address this properly. Still quite busy. However just a few quick points:

To your first point: We were all told by "science" initially that antibodies protect. The vaccine was then brought out to protect those that did not have Covid. Later, the narrative changed that everyone needs the vaccine - even if you have natural immunity.

revisonist history
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1534 on: September 03, 2021, 03:31:49 PM »
We were all told by "science" initially that antibodies protect. The vaccine was then brought out to protect those that did not have Covid. Later, the narrative changed that everyone needs the vaccine - even if you have natural immunity.
That all happened inside your head.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1537 on: September 19, 2021, 02:27:22 PM »
https://www.pressherald.com/2021/09/18/big-gap-between-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-seen-for-preventing-covid-19-hospitalizations/

What we need is a study comparing Pfizer 3rd dose to Moderna 3rd dose for recipients of two
doses of the other vaccine (so 3rd Moderna for 2x Pfizer and 3rd Pfizer for 2x Moderna), bonus points if they include cohorts with 3rd dose of the same vaccine, this way we can determine if switching vaccine for booster improves things, and by how much.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1538 on: September 19, 2021, 03:51:52 PM »
What we need is a study comparing Pfizer 3rd dose to Moderna 3rd dose for recipients of two
doses of the other vaccine (so 3rd Moderna for 2x Pfizer and 3rd Pfizer for 2x Moderna), bonus points if they include cohorts with 3rd dose of the same vaccine, this way we can determine if switching vaccine for booster improves things, and by how much.

Is that all we need? And after that, all problems and questions are solved and resolved?

How about doses after prior infection. Time lapse between doses. Time lapse between infection after dose and next dose. The possibilities are endless. In the long-run we might have answers to all of these. But as John Maynard Keynes famously said...
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Interesting Articles: COVID-19 Edition
« Reply #1539 on: September 19, 2021, 04:02:37 PM »
Is that all we need? And after that, all problems and questions are solved and resolved?

How about doses after prior infection. Time lapse between doses. Time lapse between infection after dose and next dose. The possibilities are endless. In the long-run we might have answers to all of these. But as John Maynard Keynes famously said...

I didn’t say it’s all we need, I was commenting on the narrow scope of a specific situation outlined in that article.

We really need Moshiach, and in a golus world we really need COVID to go away. But in light of the article’s assertion that Pfizer vaccine (the predominant vaccine in the US) is less effective compared to Moderna after 4 months, it would be beneficial to know whether giving people a 3rd dose of Moderna is better than giving them a 3rd dose of Pfizer.

And yes, I agree that data on optimal timing of 3rd dose, and data as to whether/what extent natural immunity wanes would beneficial as well, and that it’s something we might know more about in the future.