This is getting serious... a somber thread about COVID-19

[ah giten]

And at the same time I was posting articles from Italy showing how people on the ICU were perfectly healthy and some as young as 30

If only you would show those articles form Italy to Hatazala and people in organizations that have influence on our rabbis.
Or better, to Cuomo and Trump, they would order ventilators then.

[chevron]

Hatzalah notice from March 8.

I'm admit, I didn't see it then. What I did see then was this other letter.

That's nuts!

@CountValentine  can you cook up some crow?

[chevron]

If only you would show those articles form Italy to Hatazala and people in organizations that have influence on our rabbis.
Or better, to Cuomo and Trump, they would order ventilators then.

I showed them to my Rabbi and the doctors im close with.

I forced my family to make changes

I posted here "Corona virus and your shull"

I texted all my friends.

[ah giten]

So don’t claim Hatzalah said nothing. They may have been late but that’s revisionist BS.

They put out a notice, just like Shomrim puts out a notice to lock the doors before leaving to the mountains....
nothing alarming.
was there 1 whatsapp video circulating an alarming message before purim? no.
they didn't see it coming, and we  had no reason to be concerned.

[ah giten]

I showed them to my Rabbi and the doctors im close with.

I forced my family to make changes

I posted here "Corona virus and your shull"

I texted all my friends.

Good for you. I was also concerned, but nothing to this level.

[yuneeq]

Hatzalah notice from March 8.

I'm admit, I didn't see it then. What I did see then was this other letter.

And that’s why I said it then -  this idiotic dr should lose his credentials.

[Yehuda57]

They put out a notice, just like Shomrim puts out a notice to lock the doors before leaving to the mountains....
nothing alarming.
was there 1 whatsapp video circulating an alarming message before purim? no.
they didn't see it coming, and we  had no reason to be concerned.

It's really not their job. They are EMTs. They published guidelines according to the CDC.

Is it communities had gone against public policy, we could have taanos. But speaking for CH, our schools and Shuls closed before NYC closed. Gatherings and simchas were restricted before government lowered the crowd size below 500, and self isolating was well in effect before the rest of the city.

Yes, we were sadly about 3 days too late, but that's not the fault of Hatzalah or rabbis.

[Yehuda57]

And that’s why I said it then -  this idiotic dr should lose his credentials.

My response on the group I got it on was that it was a foolish letter and he's a daas yachid who should not be listened to. I was lambasted as a fear monger and panicker

[ah giten]

It's really not their job. They are EMTs. They published guidelines according to the CDC.

Is it communities had gone against public policy, we could have taanos. But speaking for CH, our schools and Shuls closed before NYC closed. Gatherings and simchas were restricted before government lowered the crowd size below 500, and self isolating was well in effect before the rest of the city.

Yes, we were sadly about 3 days too late, but that's not the fault of Hatzalah or rabbis.

CH has an outbreak before the other neighborhoods (at least those I'm associated with). CH was the reason for panic.
and about Haztala, it's not every EMT's job to give out such notices, but after all, the ones leading it, should've done more.
again, they didn't see it coming. nobody did. besides @chevron @yuneeq (and me, of course).

[yuneeq]

My response on the group I got it on was that it was a foolish letter and he's a daas yachid who should not be listened to. I was lambasted as a fear monger and panicker

Wait a sec. they thought Mendelsohn was fear mongering???

[Yehuda57]

Wait a sec. they thought Mendelsohn was fear mongering???

No, I called him foolish. *I* was fear mongering.

[yuneeq]

No, I called him foolish. *I* was fear mongering.

Got you. Similar experience. Which goes to show how much this irresponsible dr is accountable for.
How many people laughed at us for trying to argue with this medical expert, how can someone that reads dozens of unanimous epidemiologist opinions know more about a virus than a neck surgeon?

[srap]

One rabbi said he didn’t want to scare anyone. Not that he didn’t believe me. Another said people know what to do for themselves. (But never mind the 10 people coughing). Another said it was no big deal. So that’s the only one that didn’t agree even if I may have been able to prove him wrong.

They all deserve blame. They are all leaders and should behave as such.

+1!!  What seems so clear and obvious to us is looked upon as our being hysterical, extreme and not having bitachon in Hashem.  People only wake up (a bit) when it gets close to home, but by then it is too late.  How can we get our people to believe the message, to see what is about to happen (ch'vsh), that this is only a glimpse into the nightmare.  I, too, am disillusioned by hatzoloh and chaverim.  Great at-the-moment calls, but not good enough foresight of the larger picture. I was also told, they "did what they could" a week and a half ago. Huh?!

Shame, shame.  It is already very late in the game, but it is not over yet. 

Hatzoloh and Chaverim, WAKE UP.  ACT NOW instead of later.  Correct your mistakes and please take charge.  Get the message to the people to STAY HOME.  Grocery stores are still full.  Minyanim and simchas are still going on.  Neighborhood children are still playing with each other.  Quarantined families are still bringing in cleaning help. 

You can save our cities. PLEASE HELP.  You have connections to the rabbeim, to the people and to the officials.  We need media, cars with speakers, huge signs in major intersections, signs on every store, leaflets in every mailbox, full page ads, video monitors in markets showing the pleaing clips from the Italians.  Please help PROTECT US. 

[Proisrael]

Rabbi Frand made this point last week with a story from the Chofetz Chaim. 6:20-7:40
https://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=128789

This speech was one of the most on point shiurim I have ever heard. Rabbi Frand just knows how to deliver. FASCINATING!!

[yitzgar]

Can this thread be renamed "I told you so master thread"?

[Drago]

There is a concept we find in Chazal that Hashem deliberately hid things from tzadikim so that they should not sense impending danger.

So they shouldn't be consulted when it comes to anything that can involve danger b/c Hashem is preventing them from seeing the situation properly?
Doesn't seem to be the common approach

[yitzgar]

So they shouldn't be consulted when it comes to anything that can involve danger b/c Hashem is preventing them from seeing the situation properly?
Doesn't seem to be the common approach

Not sure where you saw this in what he wrote....

[zale]

I see a lot of arguments here about rabbis following politicians and therefore shouldn’t be blamed.

We are taught that pikuach nefesh overrides the Torah. We have laws in place for this. Women who give birth aren’t allowed to fast on Yom Kippur etc. We are supposed to be AHEAD of the curve here, not behind! Warnings from the CDC were already rolling in fast and furious in February.

Yet AFTER many schools were closed and the danger was clear, shuls remained open! Rabbis remained silent. They did not demand shul and mikvah closures until many community members were in critical condition.

Fact is, most didn’t take decisive, proactive action in any way.

[good sam]

Hatzalah notice from March 8.

I'm admit, I didn't see it then. What I did see then was this other letter.

This is stunning. Has there been a public apology?

[good sam]

I hate to say it, but I'm a little disappointed in the Gedolei Yisroel and Admurim. Throughout history, and up until the last 20-30 years or so, Jewish spiritual leaders were able to sense the danger, or at the very least recognize Emes when it was presented to them. It seems like the ball was dropped here. I understand the need for introspection and mussar, to see where we went wrong in our Avodas HaShem, but I also understand @chevron and @yuneeq being frustrated by leaders missing big time, and then trying to give mussar without accepting responsibility for not stepping up when lives were on the line.

The overwhelming majority of rabbonim said not to leave Europe...