This is getting serious... a somber thread about COVID-19

[aygart]

There is more to this.

We've lost our damn minds about weddings, Bar Mitzvah's and now even Bas Mitzvah's. Every girl now wants fancy dance classes and art projects at her Bas Mitzvah. That's what we've come to. So what if you can't afford it? The amount of extravagance and waste is mind boggling. People inviting hundreds to an upsherin with fancy buffets etc.

+1000000000000000

But lets ignore all of the lessons to learn from this because the Rabbonim didn't close down the yeshivos and shuls because an Amazon seller (who in this case seems to be very knowledgable) told them about how there is a medical crisis going on.
ETA: Just to be clear, I am not trying to c"v put down @yuneeq at all and Ihope this was not taken as such. THere just needs to be realistic expectations of what will get Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva to take the step of shutting down yeshivos and shuls.

[aygart]

I do love how everyone is pinning this on things that other people do. Why not try to find a flaw on your own conduct?

I hope that people are doing that. There is no need to blast out my own things to the world.

[zale]

I do love how everyone is pinning this on things that other people do. Why not try to find a flaw on your own conduct?

I am guilty of much of the same conduct, and am talking about myself as well. There are times when you have to see the forest for the trees my friend. Now we have no shul R"L and the kids are home all day. We won't be buying clothing for Pesach or going to exotic islands and we won't be making extravagant simchas.

At this point it feels like a G'zeira.

[flyingace]

I am guilty of much of the same conduct, and am talking about myself as well. There are times when you have to see the forest for the trees my friend. Now we have no shul R"L and the kids are home all day. We won't be buying clothing for Pesach or going to exotic islands and we won't be making extravagant simchas.

At this point it feels like a G'zeira.

+1000000000000.
And this was Rabbi Waxman's point.  Honestly, does anyone believe that acting earlier would have changed things at this point? Look at the entire world! This is not a Jewish community problem, it's a world-wide problem. Did the frum people in Italy create the chaos there? This is G-d talking here.

[yelped]

+1000000000000000

But lets ignore all of the lessons to learn from this because the Rabbonim didn't close down the yeshivos and shuls because an Amazon seller (who in this case seems to be very knowledgable) told them about how there is a medical crisis going on.

Now you're trying to cover the point. 100% there are lessons to be learned from this, but @yuneeq has a very strong Kasha. I have a tirutz but I'm not posting it here. Suffice to say, it's the same root cause as all those over the top upsherins and weddings and Pesach vacations, etc.

[chevron]

When shulchan aruch forbids talking in shull... Eh who cares? When the tzibur is begging people to shut up, meh.

When rabbanim forbid minyanim, are these the people that are listening or are these the people who feel that they are more religious and need a minyan

I can find a lot of reasons for what's going on.  And various rabbanim have said this, talking in shull disrespects God and he took away our shulls.

Obviously that begs the question why some make minyanim if this is a gezeira.

I could find a criticism in anything.  I could try to find the spiritual lessons or I can question the population and leadership

And ask a question what have they learned from all this and what are they going to do to prevent it from happening again in the medical and scientific realm

[aygart]

I could try to find the spiritual lessons or I can question the population and leadership

Exactly. You are CHOOSING to leave the suggested lesson and instead questioning the population and leadership. Maybe some things should be questioned. That does not change whether a lessong should be taken

[chevron]

Exactly. You are CHOOSING to leave the suggested lesson and instead questioning the population and leadership. Maybe some things should be questioned. That does not change whether a lessong should be taken

I don't see the point in trying to play God I don't see the point in trying to assume you know why things are happening It's easy to of course find spiritual strength and some type of message and awakening but I don't see how anybody can claim to know why or what is happening short of the fact that people didn't listen to the doctors

[aygart]

I don't see the point in trying to play God I don't see the point in trying to assume you know why things are happening It's easy to of course find spiritual strength and some type of message and awakening but I don't see how anybody can claim to know why or what is happening short of the fact that people didn't listen to the doctors

FOR RABBONIM TO GIVE IDEAS OF THINGS TO FIX IS NOT PLAYING G-D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't feel it is something yu need to fix then move on. When people say that oit is simply a way to avoid listening to Rabbonim. You don't want to listen to Rabbonim go ahead. This is a really dumb excuse.

[Dan]

My response on the group I got it on was that it was a foolish letter and he's a daas yachid who should not be listened to. I was lambasted as a fear monger and panicker

Same here. I was labeled a panicker and rooting for disaster for sharing what was going on.

[chevron]

FOR RABBONIM TO GIVE IDEAS OF THINGS TO FIX IS NOT PLAYING G-D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

exactly let them start with themselves and start taking responsibility for their own actions and their own shortcomings and stop telling us what we did wrong first let them own up and afterwards they can start telling us.

Lead by example.

The higher the person the more higher we hold them to in terms of standards.

[flyingace]

I don't see the point in trying to play God I don't see the point in trying to assume you know why things are happening It's easy to of course find spiritual strength and some type of message and awakening but I don't see how anybody can claim to know why or what is happening short of the fact that people didn't listen to the doctors

Taking a moral lesson from events is the Jewish way to respond to tragedies. The Rambam, doctor and philosopher himself, states that the spiritual lesson is the most important and to ignore it is cruel. Rabbi Waxman's speech does not say WHY this is happening, he is citing problems that need to be corrected that he sees related to our current situation.

[aygart]

exactly let them start with themselves and start taking responsibility for their own actions and their own shortcomings and stop telling us what we did wrong first let them own up and afterwards they can start telling us.

Lead by example.

The higher the person the more higher we hold them to in terms of standards.

What is it your business what they chose to do teshuva about for themselves!

Part of the job of a religious leader is to guide in religious matters. THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL WRONG WITH THEM DOING THAT!!!!!!!!!

[chevron]

Taking a moral lesson from events is the Jewish way to respond to tragedies. The Rambam, doctor and philosopher himself, states that the spiritual lesson is the most important and to ignore it is cruel. Rabbi Waxman's speech does not say WHY this is happening, he is citing problems that need to be corrected that he sees related to our current situation.

Ok so let people resolve to have more respect and stop talking during tefilla.

[aygart]

Ok so let people resolve to have more respect and stop talking during tefilla.

Great! Yes everyone should. Why does that need to preclude what they are saying?

[ltttc]

Some of these comments are making me sick. Can we at the very least agree to respectfully disagree especially at a time like this? Let's stop the blame game and try to do our best, both individually and as a klal. Bashing rabbanim will not bring us much needed zechusim.

[flyingace]

Ok so let people resolve to have more respect and stop talking during tefilla.

Is he not allowed to say what he thinks his people need to hear?

[aygart]

Is he not allowed to say what he thinks his people need to hear?

No. He can only discuss @chevron 's opinion. Anything else is "playing G-d"

[yuneeq]

+1000000000000000

But lets ignore all of the lessons to learn from this because the Rabbonim didn't close down the yeshivos and shuls because an Amazon seller (who in this case seems to be very knowledgable) told them about how there is a medical crisis going on.
ETA: Just to be clear, I am not trying to c"v put down @yuneeq at all and Ihope this was not taken as such. THere just needs to be realistic expectations of what will get Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva to take the step of shutting down yeshivos and shuls.

No harm felt. I don't ignore that I personally have a lot to improve upon, many of the things mentioned by others above apply to me. I do feel there's an additional important lesson to be learned from the complete inaction of our leaders, and I hope I am not saying this in a way that is assur. I think there was a lot of precautions that could've been taken that are far less drastic than closing shuls and yeshivas, and these precautions would have saved lives. Instead in most places we went from 0-60 in 2 seconds. Maybe the lesson is - that I and others are looking at the wrong things despite what my leaders tell me, so now they are blinded when we need them the most. I don't know.

[aygart]

No harm felt. I don't ignore that I personally have a lot to improve upon, many of the things mentioned by others above apply to me. I do feel there's an additional important lesson to be learned from the complete inaction of our leaders, and I hope I am not saying this in a way that is assur. I think there was a lot of precautions that could've been taken that are far less drastic than closing shuls and yeshivas, and these precautions would have saved lives. Instead in most places we went from 0-60 in 2 seconds. Maybe the lesson is - that I and others are looking at the wrong things despite what my leaders tell me, so now they are blinded when we need them the most. I don't know.

While you and others were talking about this, the medical community did not do what it took to get things moving until it was that late. Once they did the rabbonim moved VERY fast and went, as you wrote, from 0-60 in 2 seconds. Until then it was not presented in a way that would have accomplished more than it did. On Sunday is when that finally changed and I knew then that things would move very fast.