Maimonides

[iAm]

You are the one making assumptions. I am telling facts. Is it normal for patients to be on the floor for any reason? How do you know I have no idea how hospitals work? Put cameras in every room. Watch them all the time, then tell me everything's ok.

This is what your armchair quarterbacking from the comforts of the home of your 'long term boro park family'

https://twitter.com/KatyTurNBC/status/1245085813974667266

This is the mess you want to send extra visitors into, to act as roving fomites and spread infection.  👏

[chff]

https://twitter.com/SEichenstein/status/1245062652419850241

[flyingace]

This is what your armchair quarterbacking from the comforts of the home of your 'long term boro park family'

https://twitter.com/KatyTurNBC/status/1245085813974667266

This is the mess you want to send extra visitors into, to act as roving fomites and spread infection.  👏

You are making blanket assumptions here. I never said it's not a mess. I never said put people all over. But you are saying these things are not happening. You do not know what is going on in every unit. I know they are dealing with chaos. That doesn't remove the need for some oversight here. You can continue to ignore it, if you want.

[iAm]

I never said put people all over.

You do not know what is going on in every unit.

You cant argue both these things. How can you ensure that malpractice is not happening "in every unit" without putting observers in every unit. The reality is that maimo is not unique in the fact that its working in unprecedented situations, and theres no reason to believe that there is malpractice going on there. If you dont trust the front line workers there to do their best, dont entrust them with your care in the first place.

[hvaces42]

You cant argue both these things. How can you ensure that malpractice is not happening "in every unit" without putting observers in every unit. The reality is that maimo is not unique in the fact that its working in unprecedented situations, and theres no reason to believe that there is malpractice going on there. If you dont trust the front line workers there to do their best, dont entrust them with your care in the first place.

The Governor took care of the malpractice issue. Almost now way to prove gross negligence in this environment.

[ckmk47]

There's a longstanding bias of the frum community against Maimonides. 
Medically, it is not perfect, but has some departments that are among the best in the metropolitan area, perhaps the USA. 
The main area of complaints has been the nursing staff.  Sometimes their work, often their attitude, is criticized. I would venture to say some of the complaints are due to the attitude of the patients or his family, but I'm biased.  The behavior shown by some families at Maimonides wouldn't be tolerated at any other hospital; in fact, these families don't act the same way in a 'Manhattan' hospital. 

[Yammer]

I saw an article here in NJ last week someone came with his wife to deliver while he had covid symptoms and didn't tell the hospital staff.

A person willing to infected his wife in that kind of situation tells a whole lot about him

and MMC even got free ventilators from Elon Musk

https://twitter.com/MaimonidesMC/status/1243617646437957632

Nice to see that he actually delivered.

Kudos

it's the few delusional ones that believe if they aren't there to oversee every move the doctor and nurses make the pt is being ignored.
I don't know about you, but if I don't have to be exposed I don't want too. It's part of my job and I happily do it.

I wasn't advocating private nurses for every person. Just a group of independent ppl advocating for the families/patients. To give them assurance. Keep them informed. Etc

No one cares about your anonymous name dropping on DDF. The reality is that these stories are anecdotal and anonymous. Theres also a presumption here that healthcare workers are acting with malice or doing malpractice, while the majority are just overhwelmed and trying to do theyre best

There's a longstanding bias of the frum community against Maimonides. 
Medically, it is not perfect, but has some departments that are among the best in the metropolitan area, perhaps the USA. 
The main area of complaints has been the nursing staff.  Sometimes their work, often their attitude, is criticized. I would venture to say some of the complaints are due to the attitude of the patients or his family, but I'm biased.  The behavior shown by some families at Maimonides wouldn't be tolerated at any other hospital; in fact, these families don't act the same way in a 'Manhattan' hospital.

What makes me uneasy is that Hatzolah is diverting ppl away from Maimonides. To me thats telling

[zh cohen]

What makes me uneasy is that Hatzolah is diverting ppl away from Maimonides. To me thats telling

This can easily be because Maimonidies can't handle any more patients than they already have. It's not evidence that they are doing something wrong.

[iAm]

The Governor took care of the malpractice issue. Almost now way to prove gross negligence in this environment.

Cuomo did not give a Carte blanche pass for every doctor to practice malpractice now. If a surgeon operating on a COVID patient leaves a scalpel in the patient, or operates on the wrong limb, he will still be liable. What it does do is allow doctors to stop performing defensive medicine, ordering unnecessary CT scans and imaging on every patient, so that they can focus on providing the best possible care they can. It allows them to provide substandard care to what they would in a non pandemic, so they can focus on the greatest possible good for the most amount of people.

There is a running belief in this thread (all to common in general when jews from boro park enter medical settings) that they are getting a standard of care thats worse than Asians are getting in Elmhurst hospital, Hispanics are getting in Jacobi, or Caribbeans are getting in Brookdale. This is undoubtedly false, because everyone is working under unprecedented conditions everywhere and doing the best they can. Yet you dont hear these communities complaining and starting rumors the same way you hear people in this community doing.

Lastly, gross negligence is a obtuse term in triage care. If a hospital genuinely has 1 ventilator, and its currently keeping a 70 yo with stage 4 pancreatic cancer alive, but a 35 year old father of 4 needs it, is it gross negligence to remove the 70 yo from the ventilator. If Maimo's census is absolutely full, and they dont have a single open bed, but 911 doesnt allow them to go on bypass and ems drops off 20 patients in an hour and those patients have to sit on the floor until other patients can get discharged, is that negligence. Alot of the comments here are from people that really dont understand how bad it is on the front line.

[ckmk47]

There's a longstanding bias of the frum community against Maimonides. 
Medically, it is not perfect, but has some departments that are among the best in the metropolitan area, perhaps the USA. 
The main area of complaints has been the nursing staff.  Sometimes their work, often their attitude, is criticized. I would venture to say some of the complaints are due to the attitude of the patients or his family, but I'm biased.  The behavior shown by some families at Maimonides wouldn't be tolerated at any other hospital; in fact, these families don't act the same way in a 'Manhattan' hospital.

What makes me uneasy is that Hatzolah is diverting ppl away from Maimonides. To me thats telling

With this prior bias in mind, it was easy for many to believe that the overwhelmed staff was deliberately harming Jewish patients. So Hatzolo tried to negotiate having a family member with each patient. Maimonides in the end didn't allow it. So hatzolo is taking their patients elsewhere.
Since motzoei Shabbos, they've taken more than 70 patients elsewhere.
Now some of those hospitals are asking hatzolo to stop, presumably because they're too over whelmed. 
As mentioned above, none of these hospitals allow a patient's family at bedside.

[TimT]

With this prior bias in mind, it was easy for many to believe that the overwhelmed staff was deliberately harming Jewish patients. So Hatzolo tried to negotiate having a family member with each patient. Maimonides in the end didn't allow it. So hatzolo is taking their patients elsewhere.
Since motzoei Shabbos, they've taken more than 70 patients elsewhere.
Now some of those hospitals are asking hatzolo to stop, presumably because they're too over whelmed. 
As mentioned above, none of these hospitals allow a patient's family at bedside.

Then why is hatzolah taking patients to other hospitals ?

[AsherO]

One thing I didn’t see mentioned here with regards to having 1 family member with the patient:
1. Each family member will be advocating on behalf of the patient, ask questions, etc. and further overwhelm already overtaxed and maxed out resources (doctors/nurses), overall it will slow things down for all the patients.
2. The doctors might do everything in their ability and make the best judgements they can, but the advocates will still see things that will open up the hospital to liability and bad reputation.

It’s a hard call to make and I can only imagine the suffering of all the families with a relative in the hospital (myself included), but there are other things to consider as well.

My opinion here is that if HIPPA wasn’t so stupid and hospital’s IT systems more human friendly, we’d have a better way of communicating with family members, both during this crisis and otherwise. I’m oversimplifying, but there’s a lot of room for improvement in this area.

[AsherO]

Then why is hatzolah taking patients to other hospitals ?

Maybe they bring patients to wherever their data tells them is currently least overwhelmed (relatively).

[chff]

This can easily be because Maimonidies can't handle any more patients than they already have. It's not evidence that they are doing something wrong.

With this prior bias in mind, it was easy for many to believe that the overwhelmed staff was deliberately harming Jewish patients. So Hatzolo tried to negotiate having a family member with each patient. Maimonides in the end didn't allow it. So hatzolo is taking their patients elsewhere.
Since motzoei Shabbos, they've taken more than 70 patients elsewhere.
Now some of those hospitals are asking hatzolo to stop, presumably because they're too over whelmed. 

Then why is hatzolah taking patients to other hospitals ?

What I have heard from a member "we can't drop off someone 10am and it should be over by 2pm"
The Governor keeps on talking how people are staying on ventilators for very long, vs by MMC it seems like they are on it for merely hours.

[yochiek93]

The Governor took care of the malpractice issue. Almost now way to prove gross negligence in this environment.

even with family being there malpractice can happen you know that, at this point unless there is definite proof of an issue shouldn't people stop making up stories?
I totally get that if there was a real issue that something should be done but right now it's just people talking out their rear end since they don't know what is happening at all.

[chff]

and keep in mind that Hatzolah always defended the claim from people that MMC is bad, and now they are taking people elsewhere

[chff]

BTW any @mod can you please rename this thread to the correct name? "Maimonides"

[TimT]

even with family being there malpractice can happen you know that, at this point unless there is definite proof of an issue shouldn't people stop making up stories?
I totally get that if there was a real issue that something should be done but right now it's just people talking out their rear end since they don't know what is happening at all.

Being that we don’t do autopsies we'll never know why a 40yo goes in there & is dead a day later.

[S209]

1- A mashgiach is suppose to know the halachos of kashrus with which he checks the employees, while a layman visitor does not actually know healthcare with which to check healthcare employees. A common example of this is when IV pumps start beeping. Nurses tend to have a general feel for when to check on a patient, while a visitor often freaks out when it starts beeping, and goes and distracts a nurse while they are doing something else for another patient - potentially leading to a preventable adverse event.

2- It is not universally accepted as you posit, that visitors improve outcomes for patients. A simple Pubmed search on this topic would show you how many different research pubs have been written on this topic that dont have as much certainty as Shevy from Lakewood

3- Even if you were to argue that every patient's care would improve with a visitor, it is obviously not possible for every patient to have a visitor (some are widows, some have kids out of state, etc).  Is it ethical in a triage situation that those who are able to have visitors be granted better care than those that are unable? Thats just as bad an allocation as saying that those who are currently on ventilators get to keep it more than someone that needs it tomorrow

4- Until you do a randomized control trial, where some hospitals are granting visitors and some arent, you will never be able to *prove* anything. However, it is compelling that at this moment that visitors are just massive fomites and a very big public health concern in hospitals, and should be banned. And the infectious control managers at 10 of the top hospitals of the country have clearly arrived at this realization.

I just read this and I’m not going to dissect your entire post this second. Just two things:

a) You didn’t address what I said at all and completely missed the substance of what I wrote. I never said it’s overall more beneficial, just that you didn’t address the fact that there are positive elements to having visitors at all. That good does NOT necessarily come at the expense of another patient. That pattern continues. I understand you think it’s a net negative here but we don’t need to listen to you.

b) Attacking me ad hominem by referencing a name (not mine) and location (accurate but irrelevant) in my signature doesn’t really help your argument. You don’t know how much medical school I attended nor my personal medical credentials, as I haven’t disclosed them. Of course that appeal to authority wouldn’t mean much anyway in a logical argument but it would probably behoove you to do more research before you attack someone ad hominem.

On a separate note, it’s officially starting across NY

[hvaces42]

Cuomo did not give a Carte blanche pass for every doctor to practice malpractice now. If a surgeon operating on a COVID patient leaves a scalpel in the patient, or operates on the wrong limb, he will still be liable. What it does do is allow doctors to stop performing defensive medicine, ordering unnecessary CT scans and imaging on every patient, so that they can focus on providing the best possible care they can. It allows them to provide substandard care to what they would in a non pandemic, so they can focus on the greatest possible good for the most amount of people.
No its carte blanche. Doctors can now prescribe or not prescribe meds with no consequences. Withholding the cocktail has no consequences.

There is a running belief in this thread (all to common in general when jews from boro park enter medical settings) that they are getting a standard of care thats worse than Asians are getting in Elmhurst hospital, Hispanics are getting in Jacobi, or Caribbeans are getting in Brookdale. This is undoubtedly false, because everyone is working under unprecedented conditions everywhere and doing the best they can. Yet you dont hear these communities complaining and starting rumors the same way you hear people in this community doing.
You are comparing care at city hospitals with the only private hospital in NYC that was profitable every year when all others were in the red. So please apples to apples.

Lastly, gross negligence is a obtuse term in triage care. If a hospital genuinely has 1 ventilator, and its currently keeping a 70 yo with stage 4 pancreatic cancer alive, but a 35 year old father of 4 needs it, is it gross negligence to remove the 70 yo from the ventilator. If Maimo's census is absolutely full, and they dont have a single open bed, but 911 doesnt allow them to go on bypass and ems drops off 20 patients in an hour and those patients have to sit on the floor until other patients can get discharged, is that negligence. Alot of the comments here are from people that really dont understand how bad it is on the front line.
Leave the term gross negligence to the lawyers to define. What you define is not gross negligence. Discharges shouldnt be an excuse when you have almost 4k beds at Javits and on USNS Comfort for non COVID patients

Finally, thankfully, we are not hearing the nightmares that is unfolding at Coney Island Hospital where they dont ran out of sedation drugs for patients on vents and are restraining patients and just intubating.