Maimonides

[aygart]

They said for as long as they have equipment they wont deny a ventilator. Obviously if you dont have there is nothing to do.

But what will they do with a 90 year old when a 40 year old comes in.

[TimT]

They said for as long as they have equipment they wont deny a ventilator. Obviously if you dont have there is nothing to do.

Does this mean that till now they were denying even while having enough equipment ?

[iAm]

which number are we looking at?

Thats a O2 sat of 54. Mindblowing

[Yammer]

What makes me uneasy is that Hatzolah is diverting ppl away from Maimonides. To me thats telling

Update from a respected BP Hatzolah Paramedic. ( Chesky Rosenberg )

Serious changes have been made to Maimonides.

https://soundcloud.com/user-214931049/hatzolah-of-bp-chesky-rosenberg

HT @CHFF

[iAm]

But what will they do with a 90 year old when a 40 year old comes in.

Yes this is an issue. In bioethics, its argued that in case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of 'first come, first served' would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care. In maimo you have the added complexity of jews being vocal about not taking people off vents, and therefore you can foresee a situation where they may feel its better to just be proactive about it and exclude people to save the resources for someone with a greater chance of survivial who may come in tomorrow. Whether theres sound ethical basis for that is another q.

[hvaces42]

Thats a O2 sat of 54. Mindblowing

Conscious checking her phone. Astonishing! Read the research that they're quoting in the thread. Always been taught treat the patient not the machine. Perfect example.   

[yesitsme]

Update from a respected BP Hatzolah Paramedic. ( Chesky Rosenberg )

Serious changes have been made to Maimonides.

https://soundcloud.com/user-214931049/hatzolah-of-bp-chesky-rosenberg

HT @chff

1st medic with וויסע זאקן   

[chevron]

I have been thinking about replying but I didn't want to.

For background I have probably been to 250 through my life
Trust me there's nothing to boast about there I'm just trying to give you an understanding.

30 surgeries in And one get some pretty good understanding of the medical system.

I personally count about 50 doctors as my friends and communicate with them regularly

I keep in touch with about 20 of my doctors and surgeons some of whom are the leaders  in their field in the world.

In general, doctors work very hard.. call isn't fun, you get women up at 3am.. If you don't answer your phone they will then call your wife..

I would say that most doctors find the balance.  When the world is normal.

When doctors warn of risks and are ignored, they are frustrated and angry. They know what they, the hospitals, staff etc can handle.

The medical staff, equipment and facilities are stretched.

I'm sure there's blame on both sides, but it's frustrating to see.

And you want family members in an over crowded hospital telling over worked doctors how to do their jobs?

So one guy reads something on WhatsApp or the internet and makes the doctors meshuga and prevents them from doing their jobs?

I'm not saying this is happening but judging by the stupidity that I get forwarded or that I read in comments on various news sites I kind of feel bad for what the doctors might have to go through.

In normal times if CV a person has cancer, they can discuss the treatment with the doctors they can transfer to another facility try various stuff.

I knew this would happen.

A few times I had surgery at Mount Sinai in Manhattan, maybe 13-15 years ago.

They were so understaffed, The only way that I could get somebody to come in even after pressing the button a million times would be to clog the IV line up and set of the alarm.

And then I read a comment about the need for rabbanic authority.

So doctors are just a bunch of schlepers?

First we ignore them when they say do this and do that because only rabbanim can decide and know you want doctors to listen to rabbanim?

I'm not attacking anybody but this is the real world respect is a two-way street. Respect the doctors

It's v'rofeh yerapeh. Listen to doctors.

They don't deserve this. A friend is in isolation from his family for a month working 18 hours a day.

You should know that the mental anguish and toll it has on doctors to lose patient's.

[chevron]

From one of my closest friends who retired as department head of one of the biggest hospitals in the country after 40-year career;

That is true. My friends and colleagues in NY, LA, NJ, Chicago, Detroit, etc., are being destroyed, physically and emotionally, by what's going on. Some people worse than others. Some places worse than others. Here, we have been mitigzting with social distancing since the Shabbat after Purim, and except for a few adamant non-believers and crazy teenagers, people are sticking to it. Our tested Covid-19 numbers have not significantly increased in the past week, so our hospitals have not yet been overwhelmed. Mt Sinai, Columbia, Elmhurst, North Shore, Maimonides, Methodist Hospitals in NY are simply OVERWHELMED! Which means that staff are being overwhelmed by the disasters they have to care for and the risks they have to take is stressful beyond anything you can imagine. This is not the flu...

[avromie7]

First we ignore them when they say do this and do that because only rabbanim can decide and know you want doctors to listen to rabbanim?

I'm not attacking anybody but this is the real world respect is a two-way street. Respect the doctors

It's v'rofeh yerapeh. Listen to doctors.

Are you saying we should leave it up to the Dr to make decisions about pulling the plug? That's the only time anyone mentioned rabbanim in this thread.

[yochiek93]

Being that we don’t do autopsies we'll never know why a 40yo goes in there & is dead a day later.

that is true but right now we do know it's COVID-19

[chevron]

Are you saying we should leave it up to the Dr to make decisions about pulling the plug? That's the only time anyone mentioned rabbanim in this thread.

It's a 2 way street. Generally speaking there are people who foster great relationships with doctors and hospitals and the doctors will respect etc.

This is a pandemic, there is no manual for this.

Suppose that a doctor cares enough, How does he have enough time or energy.

I'm not arguing at the importance I'm just trying to point out.

Let me give you an example, @Dan  posts smoking hot flight deal. I know that I have about 15 minutes to book, I could go book and cancel later. But I might miss deal.

So first to check my calendar and then to see if anybody wants to go with me or if I'm going alone And then I book and I hope for the best.

Intubation can take 5 minutes and for a real difficult case, 1 hour.

[aygart]

Are you saying we should leave it up to the Dr to make decisions about pulling the plug? That's the only time anyone mentioned rabbanim in this thread.

He is saying that if you want the doctors to listen to the rabbonim then the rabbonim also need to accept the expertise of the doctors.

[Shmobaum]

Heard from Rav Moshe Heinemann that Rav Moshe Z”L wrote that if the elderly person was first on the vent you can’t remove to give to a young and healthy person but if they arrive together to the hospital and there’s only one ventilator, then the younger healthier person gets it.

[hvaces42]

Every hospital has a bio-ethics board. Maimonides has one too and I am sure the hospital Rabbi has great imput in decisions that affect jewish patients. They are very in tune to the needs of the community. I cant say the same about hospitals like NYU

[TimT]

that is true but right now we do know it's COVID-19

This is what I’m referring to.

[iAm]

Heard from Rav Moshe Heinemann that Rav Moshe Z”L wrote that if the elderly person was first on the vent you can’t remove to give to a young and healthy person but if they arrive together to the hospital and there’s only one ventilator, then the younger healthier person gets it.

This would all be nice if every patient in hospitals care followed Halacha. But what do you do when the Muslim or Protestant patient that needs that vent, doesn’t follow rav Moshe. That’s where the sense of monopoly that the boro park community has over maimo becomes problematic.

[yochiek93]

relaxed PPE policy

and thanks to this they will become even more understaffed
Which won't work in the long run

[chevron]

He is saying that if you want the doctors to listen to the rabbonim then the rabbonim also need to accept the expertise of the doctors.

Something like that, they are certainly frustrated.

The painting that got me into art, was at rijks in Amsterdam (KLM deal to tlv) Rembrandt's Jeremiah mourns Jerusalem.

The Navi yirmiyahu for 40 years warned of Jerusalem's faith, You can see and feel in the picture his anguish, Rav kook said that Rembrandt had the hidden light of tzadikim and painted people b'tzelem elokim.

Dr ditchek was crying from the rooftops.. imagine the average overworked and overwhelmed doctor? He really doesn't want to hear what you have to say, at the least he's crying to sleep, at the worst he considers you an accomplice to murder.

The frum community can start a volunteer corps, take young men and have them volunteer at the hospitals.

[Lurker]

Heard from Rav Moshe Heinemann that Rav Moshe Z”L wrote that if the elderly person was first on the vent you can’t remove to give to a young and healthy person but if they arrive together to the hospital and there’s only one ventilator, then the younger healthier person gets it.

Sorry, but it's out-of-context quotes like these that drive me friggin crazy. Please don't quote any Rov or Posek on a situation that isn't covid-19 and try to extrapolate what that could possibly mean in our situation. There are over 1000 people dead TODAY, IN THIS COUNTRY, from this. This is not a sugya you're arguing with your chavrusa over in Bais Medrash.