Maimonides

[yochiek93]

I was just in another Brooklyn hospital they had 20+ PT's lined up on ventilators and no beds at all left in the emergency room yet more PT's were coming in this is not just a maimo problem.

[TimT]

This would all be nice if every patient in hospitals care followed Halacha. But what do you do when the Muslim or Protestant patient that needs that vent, doesn’t follow rav Moshe. That’s where the sense of monopoly that the boro park community has over maimo becomes problematic.

Do you know that this has ever happened ? Otherwise cut the cr-p. Let me publicly apologize for our entire community that we actually care about our elderly & infirm.

[iAm]

Sorry, but it's out-of-context quotes like these that drive me friggin crazy. Please don't quote any Rov or Posek on a situation that isn't covid-19 and try to extrapolate what that could possibly mean in our situation. There are over 1000 people dead TODAY, IN THIS COUNTRY, from this. This is not a sugya you're arguing with your chavrusa over in Bais Medrash.

Yes, this! And it’s the same lamdus that people in this thread are using to fight for visitation rights that flies in the face of what every infectious disease expert across the country recommends.

[yitzgar]

Sorry, but it's out-of-context quotes like these that drive me friggin crazy. Please don't quote any Rov or Posek on a situation that isn't covid-19 and try to extrapolate what that could possibly mean in our situation. There are over 1000 people dead TODAY, IN THIS COUNTRY, from this. This is not a sugya you're arguing with your chavrusa over in Bais Medrash.

Huh? Why would you think that a psak like this wouldn't apply to the current situation?

[iAm]

Do you know that this has ever happened ? Otherwise cut the cr-p. Let me publicly apologize for our entire community that we actually care about our elderly & infirm.

That’s all okay. But don’t start screaming anti semitism when the start making decision making that increases the greatest common good of all their patients.

[Shmobaum]

No idea how I became a target but I was quoting what the Rav of Baltimore said when he was asked this question last week about covid situation.
In no way did I mean to imply that docs should follow this I was just replying to the up thread conversation about what rabbinic guidelines would be. Relax kid

[TimT]

That’s all okay. But don’t start screaming anti semitism when the start making decision making that increases the greatest common good of all their patients.

Closing patients in rooms & forgetting about them is not something I’d call common good.

[chevron]

Huh? Why would you think that a psak like this wouldn't apply to the current situation?

because people are dropping dead like flies and you think you're just going to go around and dictate what all the doctors get to do

[yitzgar]

because people are dropping dead like flies and you think you're just going to go around and dictate what all the doctors get to do

Who ever said that?

[Shmobaum]

Closing patients in rooms & forgetting about them is not something I’d call common good.

Very easy to blast the nurses from the comfort of your couch. Try to imagine yourself in their shoes for a minute...of course there’s neglect but I think there might be another side to this. Maybe.

[iAm]

Closing patients in rooms & forgetting about them is not something I’d call common good.

Everything needs context. If a patient had cólera and the hospital didn’t have any ppe, and was treating hundreds of other patients outside the room, it would definitely be in the common good.

Yes it’s a straw man, my point is just that asking doctors to follow Halacha when they’re triaging patients from all denominations is absurd

[TimT]

Everything needs context. If a patient had cólera and the hospital didn’t have any ppe, and was treating hundreds of other patients outside the room, it would definitely be in the common good.

Yes it’s a straw man, my point is just that asking doctors to follow Halacha when they’re triaging patients from all denominations is absurd

Nobody is there at the hospital demanding they follow halacha or treat the Jew & let the Muslim drop dead.

[aygart]

And how do you think their attitude is affected by what they saw (see?) on the streets of BP with Manhattan shut down and 13th Ave full, minyanim continuing etc? Is that going to get them to want to work with you or not?

[yitzgar]

And how do you think their attitude is affected by what they saw (see?) on the streets of BP with Manhattan shut down and 13th Ave full, minyanim continuing etc? Is that going to get them to want to work with you or not?

Absolutely. I think this point was made upthread

[chevron]

Who ever said that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/world/coronavirus-live-news-updates.amp.html

[Lurker]

No idea how I became a target but I was quoting what the Rav of Baltimore said when he was asked this question last week about covid situation.
In no way did I mean to imply that docs should follow this I was just replying to the up thread conversation about what rabbinic guidelines would be. Relax kid

You're not a target. I'm just tired. People have been using religion on this board like the medical guidelines don't matter, and it's costing people's lives.

Huh? Why would you think that a psak like this wouldn't apply to the current situation?

Because Rav Moshe was never presented with today's pandemic situation. What does "the same time" mean? Are we talking taking an old person off days after he was placed on the respirator to save a young person? Or is it a matter of minutes and seconds? If the younger person comes 5 minutes later and they haven't vented the old person yet, is that the same time? Considering the current rate of infection, hospitalization, and incubation, do we consider a young person en route to the hospital as if he arrived? If that's the case, do we ever vent an older person? You could argue that with x amount of younger people en route to the hospital, it's like they arrived at the same time, so you should never use a respirator on an old person.

I make this argument not because I believe it to be how things should be handled, but to illustrate how you cannot possibly use a case from 30-50 years ago, in which this pandemic was never in people's worst nightmares, to pasken on today's real life-and-death situations. Therefore, to quote irrelevant piskei dinim from the greatest Rabbonim is a disservice to the Rabbonim and to the people who may try to decide who lives and who dies based on those quotes.

[aygart]

Absolutely. I think this point was made upthread

Yes it was. I myself have made this point numerous times. It was mainly due to this cheshbon that I stopped being part of a porch to porch minyan with no issues at all even though I am a chiyuv (in consultation with rabbonim both originally when we started making it and when I stopped). As I have written elsewhere, there is no zchus for my father's neshama coming from ignoring the rabbonim and adding to the sakana. I will already have more than one additional competition for the amud when this clears. There are a few which be"h won't need to but are close.

[TimT]

And how do you think their attitude is affected by what they saw (see?) on the streets of BP with Manhattan shut down and 13th Ave full, minyanim continuing etc? Is that going to get them to want to work with you or not?

13th ave is pretty much deserted. It’s basically grocery shopping. I went down 18th ave past the jewish part, streets were full of Italians & Chinese.

[aygart]

13th ave is pretty much deserted. It’s basically grocery shopping. I went down 18th ave past the jewish part, streets were full of Italians & Chinese.

I am happy to hear that this is now the case, but it wasn't always. The minyanim aren't helpful either. Yes we are focussed on more due to anti-semitism. That means that in order to save lives we need to be extra vigilant. When people's stupidity costs lives בעד נעלים saying that the person was an anti semite is no excuse.

[chff]

And how do you think their attitude is affected by what they saw (see?) on the streets of BP with Manhattan shut down and 13th Ave full, minyanim continuing etc? Is that going to get them to want to work with you or not?

13th Ave and all of Boro Park is a pretty much deserted.