Author Topic: Masks  (Read 52912 times)

Offline Traveler718

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1140 on: September 03, 2021, 10:20:10 AM »
If I'm double masking is it kasha l'shikcha to put on both masks at the same time? Or maybe they're considered 1 beged since they work together and serve the same purpose, or maybe a mask isn't even considered a beged altogether?

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1141 on: September 03, 2021, 10:23:42 AM »
Is it too much to ask that our kids not be forced to be test rats for these studies?

I'd like to say no, but studies will have to be done if we want to know what's going to keep our kids safer. I'm not sure how that will be done without using actual children. Hopefully there will be significant data within a few months from schools with mask rules, especially among older kids.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1142 on: September 03, 2021, 10:24:54 AM »
If I'm double masking is it kasha l'shikcha to put on both masks at the same time? Or maybe they're considered 1 beged since they work together and serve the same purpose, or maybe a mask isn't even considered a beged altogether?

Do you put your right ear loop on before the left?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1143 on: September 03, 2021, 10:27:39 AM »
When you are eating, do you make the bracha and then remove the mask to minimize the time unmasked, or do you remove the mask first as it is considered a hefsek?
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Re: Masks
« Reply #1144 on: September 03, 2021, 10:30:11 AM »
When you are eating, do you make the bracha and then remove the mask to minimize the time unmasked, or do you remove the mask first as it is considered a hefsek?

Obviously you flip it up on top of your head for a double covering before you make the bracha.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1145 on: September 03, 2021, 10:35:08 AM »
"The educational cost of face coverings is far better established than the benefits of mandates."

Then he proceeds to spend the whole article on the minimizing the latter without showing the former in and way shape or form.

I agree with him in principle, but he doesn't do a good job of 'establishing' much beyond svara.

He links to standard guidance from pre-covid, though I agree he could have given a few more examples to strengthen his point. There is plenty of literature regarding the importance of eye contact and facial and body expressions in various areas of childhood development, and pre covid this was a given, or "established". To my knowledge, there were no studies done showing the harms of not having that, because it would be highly unethical to potentially harm a child by subjecting them to such a study. What was taken as a given is now being sacrificed for little or no gain.

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Offline avromie7

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1146 on: September 03, 2021, 11:16:05 AM »
I'd like to say no, but studies will have to be done if we want to know what's going to keep our kids safer. I'm not sure how that will be done without using actual children. Hopefully there will be significant data within a few months from schools with mask rules, especially among older kids.
At a minimum, shouldn't parents have the option to opt out of the study and not have their children forced to wear masks all day in school?
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Re: Masks
« Reply #1147 on: September 03, 2021, 11:35:53 AM »
At a minimum, shouldn't parents have the option to opt out of the study and not have their children forced to wear masks all day in school?

Yes, but not necessarily. It's very dependant on the circumstances. If the majority of the parents in a particular school want masks, and the school follows the wishes of the majority, then individual parents shouldn't have the option to opt out. They have the option to go to a different school. As far as government is concerned, I don't think they have enough evidence to mandate mask usage in order to get the data necessary to see if it's even helpful (IMO).
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1148 on: September 03, 2021, 11:38:22 AM »
Yes, but not necessarily. It's very dependant on the circumstances. If the majority of the parents in a particular school want masks, and the school follows the wishes of the majority, then individual parents shouldn't have the option to opt out. They have the option to go to a different school. As far as government is concerned, I don't think they have enough evidence to mandate mask usage in order to get the data necessary to see if it's even helpful (IMO).
If you're talking about private schools I agree with you, but public school children don't have that option.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1149 on: September 03, 2021, 11:46:35 AM »
There's not much to establish, given that there is no hard data on the costs of masking children. One of his qualms is that we're 18 months in and no one has bothered to get this data.

I think he laid out his case about as well as he could, given the data we actually have. He points to the established benefits of face time, as signed off on by the CDC and AAP, to show wha we are losing by masking. He then shows how masking little children under 5, and possibly even under 12, isn't recommended outside of this country and likely has minimal benefit to begin with.

Until we have hard data on the actual costs of masking kids, I don't see how anyone can make a stronger argument, either for or against.
So basically you agree with me. My issue is specifically with that lead line of the article that I quoted. It's possible that he didn't write that part, but I would think they don't do that at a place like the Atlantic.

To me establishing means as direct evidence as possible. If inferring from other 'established' concepts was sufficient, we'd have a very strong case that masking helps, since it's pretty well established in adults. He does a decent job of showing fairly direct evidence of the lack of benefit in masking kids with the study out of Spain, but provides no real direct evidence of the cost of masking kids.

Ultimately it shouldn't matter, since we basically do see that masking kids (especially the youngest) provides little benefit, while there's reason to suspect (even if not proven one way or another) that there are costs to masking. There's no reason to overstate the case, which I feel that opening line does.

He links to standard guidance from pre-covid, though I agree he could have given a few more examples to strengthen his point. There is plenty of literature regarding the importance of eye contact and facial and body expressions in various areas of childhood development, and pre covid this was a given, or "established". To my knowledge, there were no studies done showing the harms of not having that, because it would be highly unethical to potentially harm a child by subjecting them to such a study. What was taken as a given is now being sacrificed for little or no gain.
See above.

Also, as an aside, the one thing he does link to regarding the importance of children seeing faces is barely relevant. Very puzzling why he chose that. The population was specifically growth-stunted toddlers (ie kids that in our system would get services, or be in a special program), not general population, not school aged; the outcome studied was earnings as adults; and perhaps most importantly, does not mention anything about seeing faces.

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1150 on: September 03, 2021, 12:06:15 PM »
If you're talking about private schools I agree with you, but public school children don't have that option.

Most of them don't, but at that point it should probably be up to the majority within each district. Democracy doesn't mean always getting what you want.
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Re: Masks
« Reply #1151 on: September 03, 2021, 12:11:20 PM »
So basically you agree with me. My issue is specifically with that lead line of the article that I quoted. It's possible that he didn't write that part, but I would think they don't do that at a place like the Atlantic.

To me establishing means as direct evidence as possible. If inferring from other 'established' concepts was sufficient, we'd have a very strong case that masking helps, since it's pretty well established in adults. He does a decent job of showing fairly direct evidence of the lack of benefit in masking kids with the study out of Spain, but provides no real direct evidence of the cost of masking kids.

Ultimately it shouldn't matter, since we basically do see that masking kids (especially the youngest) provides little benefit, while there's reason to suspect (even if not proven one way or another) that there are costs to masking. There's no reason to overstate the case, which I feel that opening line does.

If your issue is solely with the opening line, that's probably not on the author. Even so, "far more established than" says nothing about the actual establishment of either side's data, other than in comparison to the other. I'm not sure I'd find too much fault in the wording. Regardless, his point is laid out about as well as possible, given the data at hand. I'd like to see a counter-argument that is as good or better.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1152 on: September 03, 2021, 12:11:52 PM »
Most of them don't, but at that point it should probably be up to the majority within each district. Democracy doesn't mean always getting what you want.
But it does protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. School choice would be a great way to solve this.
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Re: Masks
« Reply #1153 on: September 03, 2021, 12:19:38 PM »
But it does protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. School choice would be a great way to solve this.

I don't disagree, but that's well beyond the scope of the mask conversation.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1154 on: September 03, 2021, 12:23:01 PM »
If your issue is solely with the opening line, that's probably not on the author. Even so, "far more established than" says nothing about the actual establishment of either side's data, other than in comparison to the other. I'm not sure I'd find too much fault in the wording. Regardless, his point is laid out about as well as possible, given the data at hand. I'd like to see a counter-argument that is as good or better.
It's just that line. I wouldn't say the costs are established at all, in which case the sentence breaks down even on a comparitive basis. To me it implies a far greater level of certainty in the cost of masking than we actually have.

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Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1156 on: September 14, 2021, 10:33:52 PM »
Time to mandate vaccines, masks, SD and a host of other things!!!
Nope!!!

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1157 on: September 19, 2021, 02:49:19 AM »

This is keeping us safe, B"H. Mamash like the videos of morahs keeping yarmulkes on boys. I'm so proud of this wonderful country we live in that protects its citizens so vigorously.
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Offline incendia

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1158 on: September 19, 2021, 08:22:51 AM »

This is keeping us safe, B"H. Mamash like the videos of morahs keeping yarmulkes on boys. I'm so proud of this wonderful country we live in that protects its citizens so vigorously.


Offline avromie7

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1159 on: September 19, 2021, 09:37:20 AM »
Dumbest tweet ever.

I have kids, and this makes my blood boil.
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