Author Topic: Masks  (Read 161004 times)

Online Jeremiah

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1400 on: February 22, 2023, 09:52:58 PM »

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1401 on: February 27, 2023, 01:26:04 PM »
To my understanding: A 3 ply mask worn correctly in the perfect setting would be effective in stopping the virus particles from going from or to an individual. However, people live in communities, and so masking as a community results in the wrong masks being worn, masks not being worn correctly, and because masks can't be worn 24/7, spread occurs when masks are not being worn. As such, it ends up being ineffective even if someone is careful about masking. The studies show that community masking doesn't correlate to a reduction in infection even though mannequin studies show that masks do work to stop the virus from passing through.

This was wrong. This article summed it up succinctly:

Quote from: John Tierney link=https://www.thefp.com/p/the-real-science-on-masks-they-make

It has published a new Cochrane review of the literature on masks, including trials during the Covid-19 pandemic in hospitals and in community settings. The trials compared outcomes of wearing surgical masks versus wearing no masks, and also wearing surgical masks versus N95 masks. The review, conducted by a dozen researchers from six countries, concludes that wearing any kind of face covering “probably makes little or no difference” in reducing the spread of respiratory illness.


It may seem intuitive that masks must do something. But even if they do trap droplets from coughs or sneezes (the reason that surgeons wear masks), they still allow tiny viruses to spread by aerosol even when worn correctly—and it’s unrealistic to expect most people to do so. While a mask may keep out some pathogens, its inner surface can also trap concentrations of pathogens that are then breathed back into the lungs.

Whatever theoretical benefits there might be, in clinical trials the benefits have turned out to be either illusory or offset by negative factors. Oxford’s Tom Jefferson, the lead author of the Cochrane review, summed up the real science on masks: “There is just no evidence that they make any difference. Full stop.”

Online imayid2

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1402 on: February 27, 2023, 01:37:30 PM »
This was wrong. This article summed it up succinctly:
IIRC this is also consistent with pre covid studies regarding the efficacy of masking in preventing the spread of the flu.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1403 on: February 27, 2023, 01:52:05 PM »
IIRC this is also consistent with pre covid studies regarding the efficacy of masking in preventing the spread of the flu.

Correct. The current studies combine pre covid studies as well. Turns out the reason masking wasn't on the list of mitigation strategies was because they didn't believe they would work.

Offline dm123

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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1405 on: February 27, 2023, 02:25:00 PM »
Everyone is using a study to promote their narrative. No one seems to use common sense anymore.
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Offline dm123

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1406 on: February 27, 2023, 02:26:46 PM »
Everyone is using a study to promote their narrative. No one seems to use common sense anymore.


People just use studies that prove their side while waving away studies that don't fit their agenda so, like, whatever.
Welcome to the world

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1407 on: February 27, 2023, 02:29:57 PM »
Everyone is using a study to promote their narrative. No one seems to use common sense anymore.

It's not "a study". It's a review by the "gold standard" according to the most renowned medical journals of all the biggest/best studies - ones that came out both pro and anti mask mandates.

Offline dm123

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1408 on: February 27, 2023, 02:34:38 PM »
It's not "a study". It's a review by the "gold standard" according to the most renowned medical journals of all the biggest/best studies - ones that came out both pro and anti mask mandates.

LOL.

First, I want to acknowledge that Cochrane is a highly reputable source. Its systematic reviews are considered the gold standard of medical analysis. But, as with all other research, any interpretation of its findings should take into account the methodology, the question being asked and the limitations.




Were you skeptical about the gas stove study?

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1409 on: February 27, 2023, 02:40:13 PM »
Were you skeptical about the gas stove study?

I don't think I read anything from it or formulated any opinion on it. I may have made comments about people's reactions to it, either way.

LOL.

Ok, so what are its limitations in this instance? So far, it seems to me that every study touted by the likes of the CDC has been blatantly flawed, even to a layman's eyes, while the more robust studies have come down on the other side.


BTW, if you go back to the beginning of the mask debates on this forum, you can see that I was extremely harsh and sharp against the anti maskers. Even later on, after the summer of 2020 when pretty much everyone in my community was done with masks, I was one of a handful of people wearing them. I was following people who ended up being dead wrong. I'm not finding studies to prove myself right.

Offline biobook

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1410 on: February 27, 2023, 02:43:39 PM »
It's a review by the "gold standard" according to the most renowned medical journals of all the biggest/best studies - ones that came out both pro and anti mask mandates.
It's a review of whether mask mandates work, not an in-depth review of whether masks work.

Offline S209

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1411 on: February 27, 2023, 02:45:47 PM »
This was wrong. This article summed it up succinctly:
You were correct the first time. The review was not about individuals.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline dm123

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1412 on: February 27, 2023, 02:46:38 PM »


Did you read the Cochrane study or the wp opinion piece I posted?

Offline dm123

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1413 on: February 27, 2023, 02:51:55 PM »

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1414 on: February 27, 2023, 03:14:38 PM »
It's a review of whether mask mandates work, not an in-depth review of whether masks work.

And? If you followed my posts here, that's what I was talking about. Except:

You were correct the first time. The review was not about individuals.

I likely overstated how effective masks are for individuals. This is the issue CV was having. If the masks truly worked to stop infection, then surely at least some of the mandates would work at least somewhat? This review showed that mandates were even less effective than previously thought, I think it is only logical to deduce that masks, even if they are effective on individuals, are not quite as effective as previously stated. What of all the medical professionals who were wearing the right masks, even double masks, correctly, and still got infected?

Did you read the Cochrane study or the wp opinion piece I posted?

Not the study, I read responses from various people. I have now read the WP op ed.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1415 on: February 27, 2023, 03:16:29 PM »
https://twitter.com/tomaspueyo/status/1630000803141255169

I'm not knowledgeable enough to be able to know if he is correct in this thread or not, but Looking at his credentials and some of the responses to his thread, seems like he is only slightly more reliable than Bret Stephens, which is to say, not at all.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1416 on: February 27, 2023, 03:25:33 PM »
Have someone with covid wear a mask. Then after a few hours swab the inside of the mask. See if it tests positive. Then get back to me.  :)
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Offline dm123

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1417 on: February 27, 2023, 03:27:40 PM »
Right now I tend to lean towards what the authors of the cohcrane study themselves concluded in the study, would be happy to see more analysis either way.

From the Chochrane study itself (probably mentioned in what I posted previously)(emphasis mine):

Quote
Authors' conclusions
The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions. There were additional RCTs during the pandemic related to physical interventions but a relative paucity given the importance of the question of masking and its relative effectiveness and the concomitant measures of mask adherence which would be highly relevant to the measurement of effectiveness, especially in the elderly and in young children.

There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI and laboratory‐confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes. Harms associated with physical interventions were under‐investigated.

There is a need for large, well‐designed RCTs addressing the effectiveness of many of these interventions in multiple settings and populations, as well as the impact of adherence on effectiveness, especially in those most at risk of ARIs.

Based on what they write, I'm not sure why it's being held up by some as a slam dunk that masks don't work.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1418 on: February 27, 2023, 03:31:03 PM »
Based on what they write, I'm not sure why it's being held up by some as a slam dunk that masks don't work.
Sure you do.
People seem to just use studies that prove their side while waving away studies that don't fit their agenda so, like, whatever.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline yelped

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1419 on: February 27, 2023, 03:50:34 PM »
Have someone with covid wear a mask. Then after a few hours swab the inside of the mask. See if it tests positive. Then get back to me.  :)
Are you expecting the mask NOT to have particles of COVID on it?  :o

Even someone who says that masks are not effective at all will tell you that you will find particles of COVID on the inside of the mask.