Author Topic: Masks  (Read 160901 times)

Offline S209

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Re: Masks
« Reply #500 on: September 30, 2020, 11:01:18 AM »
Correct me if you disagree, the removal of the mask on camera gives the impression of "I wear a mask whenever I'm not speaking".
True. The headline wasn’t false. But it was a drop misleading (like many/most headlines are).

If she would have said “Wearing face masks is political theater”, the headline would have summed it up accurately. But what she said (and what her intentions were) was that this specific instance of removing (and by implication, wearing) a face mask is for political theater (as which moment she removed her mask didn’t have a genuine health consideration).

In summation: The headline suggests she calls face masks political theater (suggesting that is their purpose, not public health). In truth, while she said those words in that instance, it’s not what she meant.

(CV is conspicuously missing from this conversation.)
Quote from: YitzyS
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Online Hjay

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Re: Masks
« Reply #501 on: September 30, 2020, 11:12:22 AM »
2 questions -

1. In brief, how great is the benefit of masks - meaning what percentage of spread does it stop, how does wearing them properly or not (not fully on, facial hair, constant adjusting) affect those numbers & which masks work better or worse?
If you can please link 2 or 3 real articles (not political) with studies.

2. Before the CDC reversed their guidance, & recommended masks, was the general consensus among the medical community that the CDC was wrong? Or they were all following the CDC? (I do remember there being a lot of talk here about the CDC being wrong but I’m wondering if doctors were all going against the CDC as well)

Offline S209

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Re: Masks
« Reply #502 on: September 30, 2020, 11:35:56 AM »
2 questions -

1. In brief, how great is the benefit of masks - meaning what percentage of spread does it stop, how does wearing them properly or not (not fully on, facial hair, constant adjusting) affect those numbers & which masks work better or worse?
If you can please link 2 or 3 real articles (not political) with studies.

Here are some

List of studies. Knock yourself out
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/preview#

2. Before the CDC reversed their guidance, & recommended masks, was the general consensus among the medical community that the CDC was wrong? Or they were all following the CDC? (I do remember there being a lot of talk here about the CDC being wrong but I’m wondering if doctors were all going against the CDC as well)

To answer your question: The medical establishment/doctors take guidance from the CDC, so they did not advise communal mask wearing. However, any individual doctor would have told you to wear a mask if you needed extra protection, and would have required a COVID+ person to wear a mask if they left the house.

The question wasn’t whether masks are beneficial in slowing person-to person transmission of COVID. It was whether the benefits of communal mask wearing would outweigh the costs at the time.

There also was the concern of fomites, which has since been shown not to be the main source of spread. Because person-to-person transmission now known to be the main source of spread, the benefits of mask wearing (which reduce person-to-person spread) outweigh the potential hazards (which raise the potential for fomite spread).

NOTES:

1) A large part of the CDC guidance was predicated on the assumption that COVID-19 wasn’t widely seeded, so communal wearing of face masks was unwarranted and didn’t offer as great a benefit. Contact tracing was considered much more important.

2) They claimed that asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic spread wasn’t proven, which would effectively negate the largest benefit of masks, although it was well known at that point as @yuneeq often reminded us.

3) The crux of the guidance was that masks were being diverted from medical personnel, as there was a severe shortage of PPE, for use in community settings where the potential benefit was unknown. This could have had terrible overall implications for medicine. Later, they encouraged homemade masks, circumventing this issue to an extent while allowing for mask usage.

4) It is universally acknowledged that it was a mistake. They were criticized at the time as well. Note that the quote from @aygart is from March, before the CDC reversed guidance.

5) In the earliest days it wasn’t clear what played a greater role in transmission, fomites or respiratory droplets/aerosols. That debate was settled in April with more information, showing that fomite transmission was relatively rare.
Quote from: YitzyS
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Masks
« Reply #503 on: September 30, 2020, 11:50:21 AM »
Please explain, why exhaling smoke is different than exhaling air?

Irrelevant question. It was never a question if masks completely blocked air, obviously they don't block air going in/out or else we wouldn't be able to breathe at all.
The question is if masks block the droplets that naturally disperse when speaking, yelling, coughing, or just breathing. And the answer is a resounding yes.
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Offline 4yourinfo

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Re: Masks
« Reply #504 on: October 01, 2020, 09:04:41 AM »
Irrelevant question. It was never a question if masks completely blocked air, obviously they don't block air going in/out or else we wouldn't be able to breathe at all.
The question is if masks block the droplets that naturally disperse when speaking, yelling, coughing, or just breathing. And the answer is a resounding yes.
Like I wrote elsewhere - maybe it's time to just ask people to wear a mask just over the mouth? Everyone clearly agrees that's where it matters most. It's a huge comfort difference and you might just get alot more compliance..

Offline Lurker

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Re: Masks
« Reply #505 on: October 01, 2020, 09:11:52 AM »
Like I wrote elsewhere - maybe it's time to just ask people to wear a mask just over the mouth? Everyone clearly agrees that's where it matters most. It's a huge comfort difference and you might just get alot more compliance..

False.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #506 on: October 01, 2020, 09:38:09 AM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Masks
« Reply #507 on: October 01, 2020, 09:49:35 AM »
Who disagrees?

Who agrees? Where does this premise come from? Virtually every doctor has been warning that masks are ineffective if not worn properly.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #508 on: October 01, 2020, 09:51:13 AM »
Who agrees? Where does this premise come from? Virtually every doctor has been warning that masks are ineffective if not worn properly.

Ineffective or less effective?

If much of the transmission is from singing, talking, and coughing then covering the mouth will protect from those.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Masks
« Reply #509 on: October 01, 2020, 09:55:32 AM »
Ineffective or less effective?

If much of the transmission is from singing, talking, and coughing then covering the mouth will protect from those.

The reports I've seen all say ineffective. And while your theory may make some sense, this statement

Everyone clearly agrees that's where it matters most.

is false.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Masks
« Reply #510 on: October 01, 2020, 09:55:39 AM »
Ineffective or less effective?

If much of the transmission is from singing, talking, and coughing then covering the mouth will protect from those.

In addition to the simple anatomical fact that most nostrils point downward vs mouths which project exhalation forward.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #511 on: October 01, 2020, 10:12:49 AM »
The reports I've seen all say ineffective. And while your theory may make some sense, this statement

is false.

THat can't possibly be the case. You are paying the same all or nothing game. If you can get 20% more people to wear masks without covering the nose how can that just be brushed off?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Masks
« Reply #512 on: October 01, 2020, 10:19:19 AM »
THat can't possibly be the case. You are paying the same all or nothing game. If you can get 20% more people to wear masks without covering the nose how can that just be brushed off?

Again, the theory has some merit, in my unprofessional opinion. However, I have yet to see a study that suggests that it makes medical sense, let alone anything to lend credence to the statement that everyone agrees that wearing a mask over the mouth is where it matters most.

If it can't possibly be the case, show studies that back it up.
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Online Euclid

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Masks
« Reply #513 on: October 01, 2020, 10:23:16 AM »
I actually heard* that only covering the mouth is even worse because the external viral particles get stuck on the mask and then sucked up into the nose, causing a higher viral load. Better to not wear a mask at all.

*this is complete satire

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Masks
« Reply #514 on: October 01, 2020, 10:50:45 AM »
I actually heard* that only covering the mouth is even worse because the external viral particles get stuck on the mask and then sucked up into the nose, causing a higher viral load. Better to not wear a mask at all.

*this is complete satire

Well, that was a fun ride

Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #515 on: October 01, 2020, 11:02:01 AM »
Again, the theory has some merit, in my unprofessional opinion. However, I have yet to see a study that suggests that it makes medical sense, let alone anything to lend credence to the statement that everyone agrees that wearing a mask over the mouth is where it matters most.

If it can't possibly be the case, show studies that back it up.
Some is always better than none
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline NTorch

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Re: Masks
« Reply #516 on: October 01, 2020, 12:07:44 PM »
I have not seen the R' Chaim Kanievsky letter, but Arutz Sheva had a summary which included this sentence on masks which I bolded:

Quote
Ahead of the Sukkot holiday, leading rabbis Rabbi Haim Kanievsky and Rabbi Gershon Edelstein released a letter giving instructions on communal prayers and conduct during the holiday in light of coronavirus.

"The warden of the synagogue will see to it these days, to ensure the possibilities of prayers as much as possible in the open space of the synagogue courtyards, etc., and the reward for all those who can help with this in other places is great.

"During the entire holiday, one must not be a guest for meals etc., and those at high risk, including the elderly, should be very careful, " the rabbis noted.

"One of the things that is very protective against infection when among people is wearing masks, and their benefit is very great and should not be taken lightly."

"One of the mitzvot of Sukkot is joy and everyone should be very joyful on the holiday, and actions should be taken to make one's family and children happy and to create a pleasant atmosphere at home."

The rabbis noted that after one puts in the necessary effort, the obligation remains to "believe and trust in Hashem, Blessed be He, who is the leader and overseer, and the virus will harm nobody if it is not decreed from above, and we should take advantage of the upcoming holiday to strengthen belief."

"The fundamental principle: the Torah protects and saves, and we must grow stronger in studying Torah, and through the strength of the Torah we will be saved from any sickness."

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/288194

Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #517 on: October 01, 2020, 12:09:38 PM »
I have not seen the R' Chaim Kanievsky letter, but Arutz Sheva had a summary which included this sentence on masks which I bolded:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/288194
I’m lazy too (:



Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline NTorch

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Re: Masks
« Reply #518 on: October 01, 2020, 12:21:15 PM »


Thanks - I had not been on the Covid-Israel board recently. The summary in Arutz Sheva is an accurate translation and should seemingly put to bed the question of whether the Gedolim want us to wear masks.

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Re: Masks
« Reply #519 on: October 02, 2020, 12:52:02 AM »
Thanks @S209 for the info.

Seeing so many people wearing masks at times that there should be no reason to such as jogging, riding bikes, driving cars & doing other things with zero interaction with others, it just doesn’t make sense.