Author Topic: Masks  (Read 164172 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Masks
« Reply #640 on: November 18, 2020, 11:03:53 AM »
I think a lot of people are inclined to agree that its the latter but my personal opinion is to just wear them anyway. No point in fighting city hall right now over this.

Sorry, this is not nice. He put a link to a study done putting mask wearing in question and I don't see his question being derogatory or cynical. We know that everyone has varying opinions on mask wearing and all are entitled to theirs but let's try to be respectful.

Do you feel the same way about vaccines? Everyone is entitled to their opinion? All opinions are validated by posting a study that seems to back that opinion?
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Offline yitzgar

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Re: Masks
« Reply #641 on: November 18, 2020, 11:22:48 AM »
This study was posted elsewhere. It was a ridiculous study. For one, they dont even know if the masks were worn properly or if anyone practiced any social distancing.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Masks
« Reply #642 on: November 18, 2020, 11:27:24 AM »
This study was posted elsewhere. It was a ridiculous study. For one, they dont even know if the masks were worn properly or if anyone practiced any social distancing.
Not to mention the fact that they were only studying whether masks protect the wearer from contracting the virus, not whether they protect others from a mask-wearing infected individual. Or the fact that they explicitly say they're studying whether wearing a mask in settings where others generally aren't wearing masks is effective, as opposed to whether large-scale mask wearing is effective.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Masks
« Reply #643 on: November 18, 2020, 12:06:49 PM »
I agree that this study may not prove anything at all and am not advocating not wearing masks (on the contrary I believe everyone should wear, especially indoors) but that response still remains disrespectful.

Do you feel the same way about vaccines? Everyone is entitled to their opinion? All opinions are validated by posting a study that seems to back that opinion?

It has nothing to do with how I (or you) feel about vaccines, it was the tone of your response that I felt wasn't called for. People are entitled to their opinions about vaccines even if I feel they're totally wrong and their proofs are bogus but I will try to show them that in a respectful manner. But that's just me.

Online Euclid

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Re: Masks
« Reply #644 on: November 18, 2020, 12:09:15 PM »
I agree that this study may not prove anything at all and am not advocating not wearing masks (on the contrary I believe everyone should wear, especially indoors) but that response still remains disrespectful.

It has nothing to do with how I (or you) feel about vaccines, it was the tone of your response that I felt wasn't called for. People are entitled to their opinions about vaccines even if I feel they're totally wrong and their proofs are bogus but I will try to show them that in a respectful manner. But that's just me.
Read back through some of the mask arguments that have happened between the OP and the others who've responded. Civility was not abound.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Masks
« Reply #645 on: November 18, 2020, 12:23:24 PM »
I agree that this study may not prove anything at all and am not advocating not wearing masks (on the contrary I believe everyone should wear, especially indoors) but that response still remains disrespectful.

It has nothing to do with how I (or you) feel about vaccines, it was the tone of your response that I felt wasn't called for. People are entitled to their opinions about vaccines even if I feel they're totally wrong and their proofs are bogus but I will try to show them that in a respectful manner. But that's just me.

1) The study was rejected for publication by the 3 biggest medical journals. Those journals regularly publish studies which contradict current medical consensus.

2) Saying that masks are a construct of politicians and laypeople is a conspiracy theory with zero basis. Respectfully arguing its merits does nothing more than validate the opinion, which is a huge mistake, IMO.
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Offline KSMH

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Re: Masks
« Reply #646 on: November 18, 2020, 01:00:45 PM »
Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Masks
« Reply #647 on: November 18, 2020, 01:01:38 PM »
Read back through some of the mask arguments that have happened between the OP and the others who've responded. Civility was not abound.

That's true, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Can we perhaps change it going forward? Might be worth a shot.

1) The study was rejected for publication by the 3 biggest medical journals. Those journals regularly publish studies which contradict current medical consensus.

2) Saying that masks are a construct of politicians and laypeople is a conspiracy theory with zero basis. Respectfully arguing its merits does nothing more than validate the opinion, which is a huge mistake, IMO.


I'm afraid to agree with you  ;D (albeit not fully because I still believe very much in respect and think there is a way to assert respectfully what you strongly believe without validating an opinion you totally disagree with and think is crazy).

Need to proceed with caution  ;).

Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #648 on: November 18, 2020, 01:03:40 PM »
This study was posted elsewhere. It was a ridiculous study. For one, they dont even know if the masks were worn properly or if anyone practiced any social distancing.
There is an argument to made that such data is what matters to evaluate mask mandates. What matters is not what happens when worn properly but rather what happens the way the compliance happens in the real world.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Masks
« Reply #649 on: November 18, 2020, 01:12:09 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/health/coronavirus-masks-denmark.html

The most important question IMO is how many of the people wearing masks who got infected live in households where everybody wore a mask.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Masks
« Reply #650 on: November 18, 2020, 01:30:19 PM »
There is an argument to made that such data is what matters to evaluate mask mandates. What matters is not what happens when worn properly but rather what happens the way the compliance happens in the real world.
The flip side of that is that it only shows what happens when a small number of people where masks by suggestion, not what happens when large percentages of the population where wear masks by mandate.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 01:36:27 PM by skyguy918 »

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Masks
« Reply #651 on: November 18, 2020, 01:32:54 PM »
The flip side of that is that it only shows what happens when a small number of people where masks by suggestion, not what happens when large percentages of the population where masks by mandate.

*wear masks (not where masks)

ETA: You gotta fix it both times  ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 04:30:03 PM by iluv2travel »

Offline biobook

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Re: Masks
« Reply #652 on: November 18, 2020, 02:35:05 PM »
1) The study was rejected for publication by the 3 biggest medical journals. Those journals regularly publish studies which contradict current medical consensus.
Where did you see this?

Offline Lurker

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Re: Masks
« Reply #653 on: November 18, 2020, 02:45:14 PM »
Where did you see this?

The study's authors have said it publicly. It's been an ongoing saga for a while now. The study was ready for publication in October, but they couldn't find a journal that would publish it. The authors refused to discuss the study or its findings until it was published, and they wouldn't say why they were rejected from NEJM, JAMA, and The Lancet, other than "they weren't brave enough."
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Offline yitzgar

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Re: Masks
« Reply #654 on: November 18, 2020, 04:05:34 PM »
There is an argument to made that such data is what matters to evaluate mask mandates. What matters is not what happens when worn properly but rather what happens the way the compliance happens in the real world.
Absolutely. But to frame it as though masks don't work, is false. There are actually people out there who do wear masks properly, and it isn't right to discourage them from doing so.
In fact, this is likely a reason the CDC didn't recommend masks originally, because they felt there wouldn't be much benefit if most people dont wear them properly. Ironically, the same people who harp on that flip-flopping as "proof" that masks don't work, will run around with this study as well, not realizing/ignoring that it is lack of proper usage which was the cause of both. (And even more ironically, in my experience, it's usually the same people who don't wear masks properly, even when they do wear them)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Masks
« Reply #655 on: November 18, 2020, 05:34:33 PM »
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Do masks really work or is it just something that makes politicians and others feel like they are doing something?

I believe the infection rate is way too low to make good conclusions from this study, only 2% infected over 2 months is really low whether masked or otherwise. It suggests that there's an overarching cause for the low infection rate, it may have to do with social distancing norms, which the researchers also recommended for everyone. In one study it shows many get infected from a family member or while dining, so as PlatinumGuy suggested, masks won't help you when you're at home or in other places not wearing a mask. What would be more interesting is a study showing how masks perform in non-socially distanced environments.

Additionally, the study itself acknowledges that it doesn't make an "assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others."
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Masks
« Reply #656 on: November 18, 2020, 08:21:21 PM »
https://twitter.com/danielgriffinmd/status/1329231515457363972


Still hurt ears, still fog up glasses, still make breathing more difficult, still muffle speech.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Masks
« Reply #657 on: November 18, 2020, 08:27:05 PM »
https://twitter.com/danielgriffinmd/status/1329231515457363972


Still hurt ears, still fog up glasses, still make breathing more difficult, still muffle speech.
I find my KN95 doesn't fog up my glasses (3 ply-s were horrible), and yes I often leave it on while walking outdoors just for the warming effect.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Masks
« Reply #658 on: November 18, 2020, 08:27:24 PM »
Still hurt ears, still fog up glasses, still make breathing more difficult, still muffle speech.
...and still saves lives!
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Masks
« Reply #659 on: November 19, 2020, 12:15:02 AM »
Still hurt ears, still fog up glasses, still make breathing more difficult, still muffle speech.
The only one of those I'll concede to you is the last. The rest are a product of not selecting the right mask for you.