Masks

[Yehuda57]

So state them and report them.  What specific dangers are you referring to?  Do you have any sources to support this, or is it your own personal observations?

There have been studies regarding breathing, (I forget the names of the conditions as I had no idea what they meant) though iinm, the issues are rare and fairly minor, despite the fact that worn kids masks look absolutely revolting.

The main issues are harder to study, especially as their effects will take longer to manifest.

After speaking with parents, teachers, and principals from across the country with varying levels of masking required, from my own son who at most had a mask on his chin, to relatives who had their kids/students masked the entire day, the stress and anxiety it induces is real and extremely troublesome.

Kids are refusing to go to school, they've begun to throw daily temper tantrums, become sullen and withdrawn, and more. Teachers insist they are not able to absorb information as well, masks are significant boundaries in social development, and the like.

And then there is the massive feelings of responsibility and guilt if someone in the house does get covid despite the kid's masking.

I know this will be dismissed as anecdotal. And that's OK, I don't think I'll convince you. But the sheer number of people who express these things from every type of community you can imagine assures me the issues are real.

The amount of stress and anxiety I have before a flight picturing myself being in the next viral video because my 4 year old boy literally cannot keep his mask on for more than 20 minutes at a time is nuts. And I heard the same panic in the mom behind me on a flight with her 3 year old as she fought him the entire flight just this week, and I'm sure that's happening to hundreds every day. For what? How many cases have been traced to planes?

[CountValentine]

There have been studies regarding breathing, (I forget the names of the conditions as I had no idea what they meant) though iinm, the issues are rare and fairly minor, despite the fact that worn kids masks look absolutely revolting.

The main issues are harder to study, especially as their effects will take longer to manifest.

After speaking with parents, teachers, and principals from across the country with varying levels of masking required, from my own son who at most had a mask on his chin, to relatives who had their kids/students masked the entire day, the stress and anxiety it induces is real and extremely troublesome.

Kids are refusing to go to school, they've begun to throw daily temper tantrums, become sullen and withdrawn, and more. Teachers insist they are not able to absorb information as well, masks are significant boundaries in social development, and the like.

And then there is the massive feelings of responsibility and guilt if someone in the house does get covid despite the kid's masking.

I know this will be dismissed as anecdotal. And that's OK, I don't think I'll convince you. But the sheer number of people who express these things from every type of community you can imagine assures me the issues are real.

The amount of stress and anxiety I have before a flight picturing myself being in the next viral video because my 4 year old boy literally cannot keep his mask on for more than 20 minutes at a time is nuts. And I heard the same panic in the mom behind me on a flight with her 3 year old as she fought him the entire flight just this week, and I'm sure that's happening to hundreds every day. For what? How many cases have been traced to planes?

No need to dismiss any of it. It should be studied and try to figure out something that works. That is impossible to do when everyone goes to their political corner.

[etech0]

Also - when adults wear masks they may be careful about not touching the mask throughout the day, washing hands after, etc. Kids on the other hand...

[TimT]

Also - when adults wear masks they may be careful about not touching the mask throughout the day, washing hands after, etc. Kids on the other hand...

Its not foolproof but it certainly helps coughing/sneezing into a mask vs on everyone around you.

[etech0]

Its not foolproof but it certainly helps coughing/sneezing into a mask vs on everyone around you.

True, though coughing/sneezing into a mask and then taking it off and playing with it isn't great...

[Yehuda57]

Source?  I don't know what you're referring to.  Can you give some specifics?
How do you define politics?  Which guidelines?

I posted on another thread, it was a chart from the WHO detailing covid mitigation strategies in many countries, and the USA was the only non-Asian country to mask kids under 6.

Politics is making a decision to benefit our cover for any individual or group, such as a union, rather than for purely medical benefits.

[CountValentine]

Politics is making a decision to benefit our cover for any individual or group, such as a union, rather than for purely medical benefits.

Simple question. In general do masks help or not with Covid?

[aygart]

Note that the 65+ vax group was the ONLY group that was better than the rest of the country....

That sounds very in line with his wildly successful policies from the original wave. If you look back here on DDF it becomes pretty clear that FL was from the first hit with many reports of cases before even NY. Even the NY "patient zero" was presumed to have caught it in FL. Yet the death rate in FL is lower than in many states that have lower case rates. NYC, NJ, MA are the top 3 in deaths despite each of them having a lower case rate than FL. FL is number 8 in case rate per 100,000 since Jan 2020 but number 26 in death rate. Seems like focusing on the ones most at risk is a pretty successful strategy.

[aygart]

Simple question. In general do masks help or not with Covid?

They almost certainly do.

[Yehuda57]

Simple question. In general do masks help or not with Covid?

Yes.

Also, in the interests of full disclosure, I personally earn more money every time the cdc, Fauci or any politician says anything about masking, especially kids.

[biobook]

There have been studies regarding breathing, (I forget the names of the conditions as I had no idea what they meant) though iinm, the issues are rare and fairly minor, despite the fact that worn kids masks look absolutely revolting.

Right, so this is true, I remember reading about this last year when @avromie7 was so adamant about being unable to wear a mask.  There are some conditions that make it medically or emotionally unacceptable, but these are rare, so easy to make an exception for them just like we make exceptions for vaccines.

The other issues you raise, children's mental health and learning, are important, of course.  I'm not denying that this has affected many children, but as you say, you're providing anecdotal evidence from those you know so I still have to wonder how extensive this is, since I've heard anecdotally about kids who've quickly gotten used to the masks.  I don't see why it would be hard to study - this is what social scientists do. 

It reminds me a bit of the situation last year with distance learning.  Many parents and kids were saying it was awful, the kids can't stand listening to the teachers over the phone, etc.  But other kids were thrilled with their zoom lessons, introverted kids thrived in the quieter environment, some kids  loved the new creative assignments.  It wasn't that distance learning = bad. Just that it takes a lot of time and effort and training for a teacher to develop effective lessons for the distance learning kids.

So there are two questions regarding masks:
1.  Can they contribute to a decrease in the spread of covid?  And the answer to that is yes.
2.  How can we implement mask-wearing in a way that is less stressful for children?  Can parents and teachers who haven't had such problems share what worked for them? 

[biobook]

Also - when adults wear masks they may be careful about not touching the mask throughout the day, washing hands after, etc. Kids on the other hand...

Important, and not emphasized enough.  Even for adults.  It's not "mask wearing" that's helpful, but "correct mask wearing".

[etech0]

Important, and not emphasized enough.  Even for adults.  It's not "mask wearing" that's helpful, but "correct mask wearing".

Which makes me wonder if "children wearing masks in school" (as opposed to "children wearing masks under parental supervision") is really as helpful as we hope.

[skyguy918]

Speaking to a respected pediatrician last summer, (a non-observant, Midwestern liberal) he said that he and colleagues he had spoken with would not trust the cdc as it had become over-ridden by politics. He said he would trust the aap. Guess what? Now he doesn't trust the latter either for the same reason.

Surely you realize how bad that sounds, right? "I disagree with the things the CDC is saying/recommending and they've lost my trust bc of politics - but the AAP is still trustworthy. What's that? The AAP is now also saying/recommending things I disagree with? They must also be overrun with politics." 

ETA: To be clear, he obviously has a right to his own opinion - especially as a medical professional. But don't pretend put up a veneer of respecting the opinion of those orgs if not for 'politics'.

[aygart]

The other issues you raise, children's mental health and learning, are important, of course.  I'm not denying that this has affected many children, but as you say, you're providing anecdotal evidence from those you know so I still have to wonder how extensive this is, since I've heard anecdotally about kids who've quickly gotten used to the masks.  I don't see why it would be hard to study - this is what social scientists do. 

It reminds me a bit of the situation last year with distance learning.  Many parents and kids were saying it was awful, the kids can't stand listening to the teachers over the phone, etc.  But other kids were thrilled with their zoom lessons, introverted kids thrived in the quieter environment, some kids  loved the new creative assignments.  It wasn't that distance learning = bad. Just that it takes a lot of time and effort and training for a teacher to develop effective lessons for the distance learning kids.

The way this varies greatly between different children is something I've seen within my own family. Some of my children go crazy each time they need to wear a mask for even a few minutes while others aren't bothered by it at all and can sit for hours with the mask on like a little lemele. Similarly, some of my children suffered significant setbacks in their studies over remote learning, some were mostly neutral and one thrived so much from it that when they went back to in-person he was an entirely different student.

[skyguy918]

The other issues you raise, children's mental health and learning, are important, of course.  I'm not denying that this has affected many children, but as you say, you're providing anecdotal evidence from those you know so I still have to wonder how extensive this is, since I've heard anecdotally about kids who've quickly gotten used to the masks.  I don't see why it would be hard to study - this is what social scientists do. 

It reminds me a bit of the situation last year with distance learning.  Many parents and kids were saying it was awful, the kids can't stand listening to the teachers over the phone, etc.  But other kids were thrilled with their zoom lessons, introverted kids thrived in the quieter environment, some kids  loved the new creative assignments.  It wasn't that distance learning = bad. Just that it takes a lot of time and effort and training for a teacher to develop effective lessons for the distance learning kids.

The way this varies greatly between different children is something I've seen within my own family. Some of my children go crazy each time they need to wear a mask for even a few minutes while others aren't bothered by it at all and can sit for hours with the mask on like a little lemele. Similarly, some of my children suffered significant setbacks in their studies over remote learning, some were mostly neutral and one thrived so much from it that when they went back to in-person he was an entirely different student.

I wouldn't put the 2 in the same sentence. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that different kids are affected by each in different ways, but on the whole I would find it hard to imagine that the 'net' harm of masks in school comes anywhere close to the 'net' harm of remote learning.

[aygart]

Which makes me wonder if "children wearing masks in school" (as opposed to "children wearing masks under parental supervision") is really as helpful as we hope.

Now combine it with this.

Either way, the likelihood that masks would help with kids so close together for such long periods of time is extremely low.

I do recall having seen data that the effectiveness of masks and SD drops significantly with the length of exposure. With children spending many hours in the classroom this can make a big difference.

[CountValentine]

They almost certainly do.

Yes.

So lets address the reasons for not wearing masks and try to come up with a solution.

Unfortunately the solution DeSantis came up with is to let the parents decide. That is political red meat solution. We don't let parents decide on major health issues that affect everyone. Is he for letting parents deciding on other vaccines kids must get to attend school?

[aygart]

I wouldn't put the 2 in the same sentence.

I didn't

[biobook]

That sounds very in line with his wildly successful policies from the original wave. If you look back here on DDF it becomes pretty clear that FL was from the first hit with many reports of cases before even NY. Even the NY "patient zero" was presumed to have caught it in FL. Yet the death rate in FL is lower than in many states that have lower case rates. NYC, NJ, MA are the top 3 in deaths despite each of them having a lower case rate than FL. FL is number 8 in case rate per 100,000 since Jan 2020 but number 26 in death rate. Seems like focusing on the ones most at risk is a pretty successful strategy.

If you look back on DDF it becomes pretty clear that DDFers in FL did not agree that DeSantis' policies were wildly successful.  And felt that he was hiding and manipulating the data. 

The overall death rate includes the early weeks in NYC when hospitals were overwhelmed and doctors had no idea what they were doing - not a useful comparison to FL, where cases rose much later. 

The governor didn't "focus on the ones most at risk".  The elderly here isolated themselves, because they couldn't trust the governor to implement safety measures to protect them.