Author Topic: Masks  (Read 186299 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1500 on: March 09, 2023, 06:12:19 PM »
If things like this are accurate then way are way past any number.

I don't have enough data about that event to comment, and it would be anecdotal either way, but how many deaths are attributed to it?
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Online CountValentine

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1501 on: March 09, 2023, 06:15:06 PM »
I don't have enough data about that event to comment, and it would be anecdotal either way, but how many deaths are attributed to it?
In the discussion I am referring to help as from catching/spreading the virus.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1502 on: March 09, 2023, 06:20:34 PM »
In the discussion I am referring to help as from catching/spreading the virus.
Are you taking the position that additional spread is worth creating mandates to prevent even if it does not lead to measurably more deaths?
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Online CountValentine

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1503 on: March 09, 2023, 06:26:11 PM »
Are you taking the position that additional spread is worth creating mandates to prevent even if it does not lead to measurably more deaths?
We would need to know the number spread/catching to know the number of deaths. Mandates would carry more weight if they did save lives but is not necessary.

If seatbelts only reduced serious injuries, would they still be required? I would think so, no?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1504 on: March 09, 2023, 11:09:05 PM »
We would need to know the number spread/catching to know the number of deaths.

Why in the world? We have much better data on deaths than on infections.

Mandates would carry more weight if they did save lives but is not necessary.

If seatbelts only reduced serious injuries, would they still be required? I would think so, no?
What serious injury do we know as resulting from COVID? If there are limited long term effects (still remains to be seen about COVID) then why would we create mandates to prevent it more than we do for other diseases?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1505 on: March 09, 2023, 11:14:07 PM »
Why in the world? We have much better data on deaths than on infections.
That is why. For x number of infections there are y number of deaths. If we know the infections, it will give a good idea of how many deaths will result from those.
What serious injury do we know as resulting from COVID?
Hospitalizations.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1506 on: March 09, 2023, 11:27:41 PM »
That is why. For x number of infections there are y number of deaths. If we know the infections, it will give a good idea of how many deaths will result from those. .

If the number of people who died remained similar whether or not there were mandates, then why does any data about infections at some event change anything?

Okay so then use hospitalizations as your metric. If you want to know about whether it makes sense to do something, then you need to be able to see if it makes a real difference not if there is some reason to think that there may be a smaller viral load if it has no practical results. Lets come up with a practical line where it makes sense to create a mandate and where it doesn't.

THis doesn't necessarily mean that at the time the mandate made no sense based on what we knew then. That is a separate question. But it is absolutely possible that social distancing and mask guidelines were pointless based on what we see now.
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Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1507 on: March 10, 2023, 01:40:36 AM »
Please excuse me for providing my two cents (plus inflation). Despite having not read a single provided link, it looks like I may have a different perspective based on what I had been reading and experiencing during COVID. It is important to see the big picture and not focus in minutiae.

When SARS-COV-2 was first detected, the medical establishment was concerned by the effects. Perfectly healthy people were hit extremely hard in rare cases, and those with various health disadvantages were in serious danger.
At first, they did not have a clear handle on how COVID spread. So, erring on the side of caution, they treated it like the common cold. We were told about droplets spreading through the air, and how long live strain was detected on various surfaces. ("On metal: 18 hours !!!") It took some time before they realized that COVID did not spread quite that easily. I remember reading that detecting live COVID on surfaces may have indeed been the case, but somehow, it still didn't get anyone sick (at least then).

Nevertheless, they were still concerned for a different reason. At this point, 20 year studies came out on the original SARS. These studies showed that SARS gave most people weaker constitutions and severely affected immune systems. (I remember seeing something like 5x more like to catch colds, or something.)

Anyway, just like the original influenza, the severe strains of COVID died out (when someone dies, they are not a carrier, but when someone has mild symptoms because of a milder strain, they are). We masked up through Beta but when Delta arrived in Israel, RYBs told us not to bother. Delta spread like a cold - masking was useless, and even vaxing didn't stop it, though the heiligeh medical establishment assured us that the vax kept us from getting too sick. By the time Omicron hit, RYBs had us off of vaccines also, saying that the side effects of the vax were (at this point) not worth avoiding COVID.

Did masks, staying 6 feet apart inside with partitions and ventilated rooms, etc, help enough to matter back in the beginning? I don't think anyone can say for sure. There is no way to make a proper scientific experiment, with controls, in an environment that is controlled absolutely. For every anecdote you have one way, I can find another.

Here's one: Sanhedria Murchevet was about 70% non-vaxed, non-masked. Our shul was the only exception - and we lost members who couldn't be bothered, and gained a few who were uncomfortable elsewhere in the neighborhood. We masked religiously (hey, the Rav said), stayed apart from everyone. In our shul we stayed far apart and opened all the windows. I learned at home for summer zman, and in Elul I had a ventilated section of my beis medrash partitioned off with masks and social distancing. When someone was near someone else who tested positive, we stayed home (at first for two weeks - then as tests became widely available, one week with two negatives). Although several members caught COVID, it was always from elsewhere where they had no control over the environment. There was not a single case of spread in the shul. When the vaccine became available, the Rav actually had us wait because what we had been doing appeared to be working. When Beta arrived, though, the Rav told us to get vaccines. No one in my immediate family got COVID until Delta - I know because every cold had us testing constantly, as per the Rav's instructions.

Is the above worth anything? I don't think so. But it sounds nice... 8)

Even though we did all the rules, the very first shiur the Rav gave in public was essentially a long limud zechus for those who didn't. He said it wasn't clear that this hishtadlus is required in order to prevent yourself and others from getting sick. He noted that saying these guidelines helped is not the same thing as saying they helped very much. Since we didn't have enough info, he said it is a good thing to try, but he also said that lav davka we are mechuyav. It seems like he treated it very much with an open mind.
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Offline S209

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1508 on: March 10, 2023, 09:18:33 AM »
Please excuse me for providing my two cents (plus inflation). Despite having not read a single provided link, it looks like I may have a different perspective based on what I had been reading and experiencing during COVID. It is important to see the big picture and not focus in minutiae.
Excellent perspective. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1509 on: April 25, 2023, 07:31:11 PM »

Offline aygart

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1510 on: April 26, 2023, 09:41:44 AM »
He's trying to rewrite history


As is everyone who places the blame entirely on him and absolves the actual policy makers such as Trump.
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Offline neveryou

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1511 on: June 14, 2023, 06:39:48 PM »
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1669045672404762624?t=v1z-6Z2_ionVNlaHulZOkQ&s=19

Crazy that there still saying this in 2023

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Offline TimT

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1512 on: December 09, 2023, 08:24:10 PM »

Offline Dan

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1513 on: July 10, 2024, 10:49:00 AM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yelped

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1514 on: July 10, 2024, 11:40:07 AM »
https://x.com/OliLondonTV/status/1811006007146951021
This is the watermelon girl?

Do these people realize how nuts they sound (and are)?

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1515 on: July 10, 2024, 11:53:15 AM »
https://x.com/OliLondonTV/status/1811006007146951021

Apparently Covid also targets white privileged young people and makes them insane.

Offline TimT

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1516 on: July 10, 2024, 11:54:23 AM »
What’s her address ? I can send over cases of them.

Offline TimT

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1517 on: July 10, 2024, 11:56:19 AM »
Apparently Covid also targets white privileged young people and makes them insane.
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