Author Topic: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)  (Read 547831 times)

Offline shapsam

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1340 on: May 24, 2020, 12:18:05 AM »
Not sure how it's calculated. What amount was offered?
After @AsherO pointed it out I realized it's 50% of the reported revenue for the last 12 months.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1341 on: May 24, 2020, 12:20:16 AM »
After @AsherO pointed it out I realized it's 50% of the reported revenue for the last 12 months.
GREAT NEWS

https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-05/IFR%20Forgivenss%20FINAL.pdf

b. Are salary, wages, or commission payments to furloughed employees; bonuses; or hazard
pay during the covered period eligible for loan forgiveness?
Yes. The CARES Act defines the term “payroll costs” broadly to include compensation
in the form of salary, wages, commissions, or similar compensation. If a borrower pays
furloughed employees their salary, wages, or commissions during the covered period,
those payments are eligible for forgiveness as long as they do not exceed an annual salary
of $100,000, as prorated for the covered period. The Administrator, in consultation with
the Secretary, has determined that this interpretation is consistent with the text of the
statute and advances the paycheck protection purposes of the statute by enabling
borrowers to continue paying their employees even if those employees are not able to
perform their day-to-day duties, whether due to lack of economic demand or public
health considerations. This intent is reflected throughout the statute, including in section
1106(d)(4) of the Act, which provides that additional wages paid to tipped employees are
eligible for forgiveness. The Administrator, in consultation with the Secretary, has also
determined that, if an employee’s total compensation does not exceed $100,000 on an
annualized basis, the employee’s hazard pay and bonuses are eligible for loan forgiveness
because they constitute a supplement to salary or wages, and are thus a similar form of
compensation.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1342 on: May 24, 2020, 12:25:01 AM »
IT COULD BE THAT S-CORP OWNERS ON W-2 INCOME ARE NOT LIMITED TO THE 8/52 RULE. IT AGAIN AND AGAIN ONLY MENTIONS SCHEDULE C FILERS AND GENERAL PARTNERS WITH SE INCOME. WILL NEED TO SEE MORE GUIDANCE


c. Are there caps on the amount of loan forgiveness available for owner-employees and
self-employed individuals’ own payroll compensation?
Yes, the amount of loan forgiveness requested for owner-employees and self-employed
individuals’ payroll compensation can be no more than the lesser of 8/52 of 2019
12
compensation (i.e., approximately 15.38 percent of 2019 compensation) or $15,385 per
individual in total across all businesses. See 85 FR 21747, 21750.
In particular, owner-employees are capped by the amount of their 2019 employee cash
compensation and employer retirement and health care contributions made on their
behalf. Schedule C filers are capped by the amount of their owner compensation
replacement, calculated based on 2019 net profit.3
 General partners are capped by the
amount of their 2019 net earnings from self-employment (reduced by claimed section 179
expense deduction, unreimbursed partnership expenses, and depletion from oil and gas
properties) multiplied by 0.9235. No additional forgiveness is provided for retirement or
health insurance contributions for self-employed individuals, including Schedule C filers
and general partners, as such expenses are paid out of their net self-employment income.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1343 on: May 24, 2020, 12:27:52 AM »
ARE ALL OTHER ADVANCE PAYMENTS PERMITTED? RENT/ELECTRICITY/PHONE BILLS? IT ONLY EXCLUDES ADVANCE PAYEMENTS OF MORTGAGE OBLIGATIONS

b. Are advance payments of interest on mortgage obligations eligible for loan forgiveness?
No. Advance payments of interest on a covered mortgage obligation are not eligible for
loan forgiveness because the CARES Act’s loan forgiveness provisions regarding
mortgage obligations specifically exclude “prepayments.” Principal on mortgage
obligations is not eligible for forgiveness under any circumstances.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1344 on: May 24, 2020, 12:33:22 AM »
INTERESTING POINT

If you reduce a FT worker to PT you won/t be double penalized. you will only have to count it  as a FTE reduction but not as a salary reduction.

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1345 on: May 24, 2020, 12:41:26 AM »
IT COULD BE THAT S-CORP OWNERS ON W-2 INCOME ARE NOT LIMITED TO THE 8/52 RULE. IT AGAIN AND AGAIN ONLY MENTIONS SCHEDULE C FILERS AND GENERAL PARTNERS WITH SE INCOME. WILL NEED TO SEE MORE GUIDANCE


c. Are there caps on the amount of loan forgiveness available for owner-employees and
self-employed individuals’ own payroll compensation?
Yes, the amount of loan forgiveness requested for owner-employees and self-employed
individuals’ payroll compensation can be no more than the lesser of 8/52 of 2019
12
compensation
(i.e., approximately 15.38 percent of 2019 compensation) or $15,385 per
individual in total across all businesses. See 85 FR 21747, 21750.
In particular, owner-employees are capped by the amount of their 2019 employee cash
compensation
and employer retirement and health care contributions made on their
behalf. Schedule C filers are capped by the amount of their owner compensation
replacement, calculated based on 2019 net profit.3
 General partners are capped by the
amount of their 2019 net earnings from self-employment (reduced by claimed section 179
expense deduction, unreimbursed partnership expenses, and depletion from oil and gas
properties) multiplied by 0.9235. No additional forgiveness is provided for retirement or
health insurance contributions for self-employed individuals, including Schedule C filers
and general partners, as such expenses are paid out of their net self-employment income.

Read the bold pieces again.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1346 on: May 24, 2020, 12:50:24 AM »
Read the bold pieces again.
The question starts with owner-employees and self-employed individuals, the answer includes scenarios of owner-employees and SE indiv. could be only those are included


c. Are there caps on the amount of loan forgiveness available for owner-employees and
self-employed individuals’ own payroll compensation?
Yes, the amount of loan forgiveness requested for owner-employees and self-employed
individuals’ payroll compensation can be no more than the lesser of 8/52 of 2019
12
compensation (i.e., approximately 15.38 percent of 2019 compensation) or $15,385 per
individual in total across all businesses. See 85 FR 21747, 21750.
In particular, owner-employees are capped by the amount of their 2019 employee cash
compensation and employer retirement and health care contributions made on their
behalf. Schedule C filers are capped by the amount of their owner compensation
replacement, calculated based on 2019 net profit.3
 General partners are capped by the
amount of their 2019 net earnings from self-employment (reduced by claimed section 179
expense deduction, unreimbursed partnership expenses, and depletion from oil and gas
properties) multiplied by 0.9235. No additional forgiveness is provided for retirement or
health insurance contributions for self-employed individuals, including Schedule C filers
and general partners, as such expenses are paid out of their net self-employment income.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1347 on: May 24, 2020, 12:56:39 AM »
Read the bold pieces again.
https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/How-to-Calculate-Loan-Amounts.pdf

Question 2, 4, Are for Schedule C filers and Partnership filers and it's specifically mentions

2019 employer contributions for employee health insurance, if any (portion of
IRS Form 1065 line 19 attributable to health insurance);
o 2019 employer contributions to employee retirement plans, if any (IRS Form
1065 line 18);

Question 5 is about S corps and..

2019 employer health insurance contributions (portion of IRS Form 1120 line
24 or IRS Form 1120-S line 18 attributable to health insurance);
o 2019 employer retirement contributions (IRS Form 1120 line 23 or IRS Form
1120-S line 17); and


I KNOW THAT THIS FILE IS ABOUT LOAN AMOUNT CALCULATION NOT ABOUT FORGIVNESS BUT YOU SEE THAT S-CORPS THEY ARE TREATING DIFFERENTLY, COULD BE REGARDING FORGIVENESS ALSO

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1348 on: May 24, 2020, 03:19:59 AM »
Instructions seem clear enough... Employee’s Name: Separately list each employee. Do not include any independent contractors, owner-employees, self-employed individuals, or partners.

It matters to them because of the 8/52 limit, and the limitation that owner's not include SALT, health benefits, and retirement in forgiveness...
Anything included in SALT  other than State Unemployment insurance cost?

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1349 on: May 24, 2020, 03:38:41 AM »
ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE S-CORP OWNERS CAN INCLUDE BENEFITS INTO THEIR PAYROLL CALCULATIONS.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alangassman/2020/05/16/sba-gives-ppp-borrowers-good-newsforgiveness-application-and-instructions-are-borrower-friendly/#22b857973210

8. Independent Contractors, Proprietors and Partners in Partnerships May Be Left Out in the Cold.  The Application and Instructions confirm an apparent intent to not permit independent contractors, proprietors, or individuals who are partners in a partnership to receive the benefit of forgiveness for the costs of their own health insurance and retirement plan contributions. We had hoped that businesses that are operated as partnerships for tax purposes would be treated the same as those taxed as S corporations or C corporations, but this will apparently not be the case, as a surprise and disappointment to many. The newly issued Instructions for what is known as “PPP Schedule A” provide that the “Payroll” will include total amounts paid by the Borrower for “employee health insurance…[and] employer contributions to employee retirement plans…[and] state and local taxes assessed on employee compensation…”

This was not a surprise to Larry Starr, who has been notifying people for weeks that the decision of the SBA to NOT allow self-employeds (which appear to include both sole proprietors and partners in a general partnership) is dramatically unfair to such entities. As noted in Number 7 above, a sole shareholder in an S corporation will get to include his full benefit costs (health insurance and retirement plan contributions) for the loan and forgiveness, while the individual who elected to be treated as unincorporated is discriminated against and will not be allowed to receive these benefits within the PPP structure. There is still hope that this might be modified, but the SBA did not do so in this release of the reimbursement form.

We will obviously be studying these and other issues relating to PPP loans, as impacted by this new primarily borrower friendly development and provide a further post soon.

Offline theblakdavid

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1350 on: May 24, 2020, 06:15:11 AM »
Anyone here get offered/accept an EIDL loan (not advance/grant)? I just got offered a loan and I'm not sure what it means. Anyone know more about this?

30 year term is nice, 3.75% not so much.
Yes I just did - Friday.  It was under 200k , but significantly less than 50% of business revenue for the past 12 months. I accepted the amount offered, and it asked me to verify identity. I did, and now it says processing. Anyone have a clue what the process is / requested docs/ time until disbursement?

Offline jackofall

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1351 on: May 24, 2020, 10:37:26 AM »
Yes I just did - Friday.  It was under 200k , but significantly less than 50% of business revenue for the past 12 months. I accepted the amount offered, and it asked me to verify identity. I did, and now it says processing. Anyone have a clue what the process is / requested docs/ time until disbursement?
Pretty quick turnaround time. Same biz day or next. Funding next day after signing loan docs. Thanks.
If you focus on being a boss, you will never be a leader. Leaders lead people to growth and improvement.

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1352 on: May 24, 2020, 10:50:51 AM »
Can pls all those receiving the loan post the date they applied/date received the advance?  Thanks

Offline theblakdavid

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1353 on: May 24, 2020, 10:57:24 AM »
Pretty quick turnaround time. Same biz day or next. Funding next day after signing loan docs. Thanks.
Nice! So from processing until disbursement can be a day or two?
Or do you mean from signing?

Thanks !

Offline theblakdavid

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1354 on: May 24, 2020, 11:03:27 AM »
Can pls all those receiving the loan post the date they applied/date received the advance?  Thanks
I didn’t receive an advance (unsure why), but I applied April 27, and application started processing on May 22 (Email with online account creation).
Will update as it does.

Offline AsherO

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1355 on: May 24, 2020, 11:09:54 AM »
Pretty quick turnaround time. Same biz day or next. Funding next day after signing loan docs. Thanks.

No special underwriting for > $25k?

That’s amazing!
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Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1356 on: May 24, 2020, 01:03:29 PM »
The question starts with owner-employees and self-employed individuals, the answer includes scenarios of owner-employees and SE indiv. could be only those are included


c. Are there caps on the amount of loan forgiveness available for owner-employees and
self-employed individuals’ own payroll compensation?
Yes, the amount of loan forgiveness requested for owner-employees and self-employed
individuals’ payroll compensation can be no more than the lesser of 8/52 of 2019
12
compensation (i.e., approximately 15.38 percent of 2019 compensation) or $15,385 per
individual in total across all businesses. See 85 FR 21747, 21750.
In particular, owner-employees are capped by the amount of their 2019 employee cash
compensation and employer retirement and health care contributions made on their
behalf. Schedule C filers are capped by the amount of their owner compensation
replacement, calculated based on 2019 net profit.3
 General partners are capped by the
amount of their 2019 net earnings from self-employment (reduced by claimed section 179
expense deduction, unreimbursed partnership expenses, and depletion from oil and gas
properties) multiplied by 0.9235. No additional forgiveness is provided for retirement or
health insurance contributions for self-employed individuals, including Schedule C filers
and general partners, as such expenses are paid out of their net self-employment income.

Owner-employees are those owners that are on W2 wages.
This means that the 8/52 cap applies to them as well, and they can't gift themselves a bonus with the remaining cash unlike regular employees who you could issue a bonus to.

It does look like W2 owner-employees can include employer retirement and health care contributions based on 2019 contributions though- while SE and General Partners cannot include those.

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1357 on: May 24, 2020, 01:07:45 PM »
Owner-employees are those owners that are on W2 wages.
This means that the 8/52 cap applies to them as well, and they can't gift themselves a bonus with the remaining cash unlike regular employees who you could issue a bonus to.

It does look like W2 owner-employees can include employer retirement and health care contributions based on 2019 contributions though- while SE and General Partners cannot include those.

This is my paraphrased understanding of it:
Owner-employees (owners with W2 payroll compensation, C and S corporation shareholders) and self-employed individualswill have their salary forgiveness limited to 8/52 of 2019 compensation. Owner-employees can receive forgiveness for employer retirement and health care contributions, limited to 8/52 of 2019 contributions and capped at $100,000 when added to salary, while self-employed individuals and general partners receive no forgiveness for retirement and health care contributions.

General partners compensation is limited to 2019 net earnings from self-employment multiplied by 92.35%

https://www.currentfederaltaxdevelopments.com/blog/2020/5/23/ppp-forgiveness-interim-final-rule-released-by-the-small-business-administration
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 01:46:35 PM by cgr »

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1358 on: May 24, 2020, 01:53:05 PM »
This is my paraphrased understanding of it:
Owner-employees (owners with W2 payroll compensation, C and S corporation shareholders) and self-employed individualswill have their salary forgiveness limited to 8/52 of 2019 compensation. Owner-employees can receive forgiveness for employer retirement and health care contributions, limited to 8/52 of 2019 contributions and capped at $100,000 when added to salary, while self-employed individuals and general partners receive no forgiveness for retirement and health care contributions.

General partners compensation is limited to 2019 net earnings from self-employment multiplied by 92.35%

https://www.currentfederaltaxdevelopments.com/blog/2020/5/23/ppp-forgiveness-interim-final-rule-released-by-the-small-business-administration
ACCORDING TO THE LINK, S CORPORATIONS ARE LIMITED ON THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE AND RETIREMENT ALSO

Owner-employees: Capped by the amount of their 2019 employee cash compensation and employer retirement plan and health care contributions made on their behalf.  Note that the retirement contributions and health care contributions are included in the total subject to the 8/52 cap and also appear to factor into the $15,385 limit per individual.

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #1359 on: May 24, 2020, 02:10:47 PM »
ACCORDING TO THE LINK, S CORPORATIONS ARE LIMITED ON THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE AND RETIREMENT ALSO

Owner-employees: Capped by the amount of their 2019 employee cash compensation and employer retirement plan and health care contributions made on their behalf.  Note that the retirement contributions and health care contributions are included in the total subject to the 8/52 cap and also appear to factor into the $15,385 limit per individual.

Correct:
This is my paraphrased understanding of it:
Owner-employees (owners with W2 payroll compensation, C and S corporation shareholders) and self-employed individuals will have their salary forgiveness limited to 8/52 of 2019 compensation. Owner-employees can receive forgiveness for employer retirement and health care contributions, limited to 8/52 of 2019 contributions and capped at $100,000 when added to salary, while self-employed individuals and general partners receive no forgiveness for retirement and health care contributions.

General partners compensation is limited to 2019 net earnings from self-employment multiplied by 92.35%

https://www.currentfederaltaxdevelopments.com/blog/2020/5/23/ppp-forgiveness-interim-final-rule-released-by-the-small-business-administration