Author Topic: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)  (Read 340852 times)

Offline S209

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2020, 09:24:33 PM »
Agreed they are not based on payroll, but it is recommended that institutions maintain their payroll.
The ones I spoke to were from various institutions, both K-12 and higher learning. I'm happy for your wife. Wonder if that's the rule or the exception.

If you can't afford to pay your employees right now, the right thing is to allow them to go on unemployment. PPP can't be backdated anyway, and you can rehire everyone once those funds are received.
Is it ethical to lay someone off if you plan to and are able to pay them their regular salary? Especially with a lighter workload than normal?

Donít know if itís the norm. I just donít know why youíre seemingly appalled at institutions with no evidence of wrongdoing.

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2020, 09:26:13 PM »
The funding amounts upthread were not referring to the GEERF. That is a state-administered fund for which no guidance has been received as of yet.
My mistake. Copied wrong para. Check out the chart. Recommends all institutions receiving grants to maintain payroll.

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2020, 09:33:01 PM »
Is it ethical to lay someone off if you plan to and are able to pay them their regular salary? Especially with a lighter workload than normal?

Donít know if itís the norm. I just donít know why youíre seemingly appalled at institutions with no evidence of wrongdoing.
I had a teacher call me up yesterday. She usually works 4 days a week for a few hours. Her workload has been reduced to 1 day for a few hours. She hasn't been paid since Purim time. Putting food on the table has always been a struggle, but now she's close to her breaking point.
She called her school to verify that she's furloughed so that she can apply for partial unemployment and receive $600+ (a windfall for her). The school: you're not furloughed. We don't know if/when we'll be able to pay you.
My pain comes more from the fact that a few large institutions have not reviewed these options from the teachers perspective, to see how they can best benefit those poor struggling employees- who btw give a lot more than they get on a regular basis- and are instead using this to grab what they can. I understand that they feel like they're benefiting the teachers by hopefully (?) paying them backwages in a few months time, after they've received a few mil in funding, but from those hardworking souls experiencing this nightmare, that's not the case.

Offline S209

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2020, 09:33:30 PM »
My mistake. Copied wrong para. Check out the chart. Recommends all institutions receiving grants to maintain payroll.
Ok, they would like them to maintain their payroll, of course. The schools are perhaps following suit. What is unethical about that? Itís not like telling certain non-essential staff to go on unemployment. And thereís no direct penalty for doing so regardless. In fact, schools would be best off collecting the grant and sending as many teachers as possible packing, where the state picks up the tab again.

Besides, your whole premise is flawed. If schools plan to maintain regular payroll why on earth should they send someone to unemployment? Isnít that unethical and wrong?

Offline TBD

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2020, 09:36:56 PM »
I had a teacher call me up yesterday. She usually works 4 days a week for a few hours. Her workload has been reduced to 1 day for a few hours. She hasn't been paid since Purim time. Putting food on the table has always been a struggle, but now she's close to her breaking point.
She called her school to verify that she's furloughed so that she can apply for partial unemployment and receive $600+ (a windfall for her). The school: you're not furloughed. We don't know if/when we'll be able to pay you.
My pain comes more from the fact that a few large institutions have not reviewed these options from the teachers perspective, to see how they can best benefit those poor struggling employees- who btw give a lot more than they get on a regular basis- and are instead using this to grab what they can. I understand that they feel like they're benefiting the teachers by hopefully (?) paying them backwages in a few months time, after they've received a few mil in funding, but from those hardworking souls experiencing this nightmare, that's not the case.
She should be eligible to file for part time unemployment (atleast in NYS) and receive the full $600

Offline S209

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2020, 09:37:12 PM »
I had a teacher call me up yesterday. She usually works 4 days a week for a few hours. Her workload has been reduced to 1 day for a few hours. She hasn't been paid since Purim time. Putting food on the table has always been a struggle, but now she's close to her breaking point.
She called her school to verify that she's furloughed so that she can apply for partial unemployment and receive $600+ (a windfall for her). The school: you're not furloughed. We don't know if/when we'll be able to pay you.
My pain comes more from the fact that a few large institutions have not reviewed these options from the teachers perspective, to see how they can best benefit those poor struggling employees- who btw give a lot more than they get on a regular basis- and are instead using this to grab what they can. I understand that they feel like they're benefiting the teachers by hopefully (?) paying them backwages in a few months time, after they've received a few mil in funding, but from those hardworking souls experiencing this nightmare, that's not the case.
Assuming they are not up to par currently in collecting full tuition for these same reasons, where are they supposed to get the funding to pay them? These grants are specifically designed to help them because of their financial shortfalls. You think schools are being malicious?

Forgive me, I simply donít understand what youíre upset about. Teachers, like unfortunately many workers in the current climate, are behind on their wages because of the situation. Luckily, they will hopefully get paid back in full, continue to get paid, and get to keep their jobs with no interruption.

Where is a school at fault? Because they may be getting a grant in the future to help them cover their payroll?

ETA: A million dollars sounds like a lot but in a school with 1,000 students thatís $1K per student. Anywhere between 7-20% of regular annual tuition. Schools have very large budgets with many expenses and workers.

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2020, 09:38:10 PM »
She should be eligible to file for part time unemployment (atleast in NYS) and receive the full $600
Exactly the point. School won't back up her claim and will reject her claim when they receive their letter to certify.

Offline Shua

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2020, 09:38:42 PM »
If schools got this Grant can they also have applied for PPP? Or is that double dipping?

Offline S209

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2020, 09:39:58 PM »
If schools got this Grant can they also have applied for PPP? Or is that double dipping?
Shouldnít be a problem to apply for both if you can

Offline yzj

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2020, 09:40:15 PM »
If schools got this Grant can they also have applied for PPP? Or is that double dipping?
They can

Offline Shua

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2020, 09:44:30 PM »
So technically many schools can have pretty much zero expenses over the next few months. Payroll for the teachers paid by the PPP and other expenses paid by this grant (if it's a post high school institution). The argument for stopping Tuition payments just got stronger...

Offline S209

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2020, 09:49:39 PM »
So technically many schools can have pretty much zero expenses over the next few months. Payroll for the teachers paid by the PPP and other expenses paid by this grant (if it's a post high school institution). The argument for stopping Tuition payments just got stronger...
The grant has pretty specific usage requirements which arenít clear as of yet, and it may be considered part of the financial aid packages schools already received. Itís not clear yet. PPP paid for 2 months of payroll and weíll see what the grant ends up covering.

You can certainly ask for help if you find yourself in a tough spot because of corona but donít expect to be allowed to stay in a school if you just stop paying tuition..

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #152 on: April 20, 2020, 09:50:49 PM »
So technically many schools can have pretty much zero expenses over the next few months. Payroll for the teachers paid by the PPP and other expenses paid by this grant (if it's a post high school institution). The argument for stopping Tuition payments just got stronger...
Remember PPP is only for 2 months of payroll (forgiveness can only be used over an 8 week period)

Offline aygart

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #153 on: April 20, 2020, 10:06:33 PM »
Exactly the point. School won't back up her claim and will reject her claim when they receive their letter to certify.
So file and then when they reject price it to the state by not having retrieved a paycheck
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Shua

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #154 on: April 20, 2020, 10:10:22 PM »
Remember PPP is only for 2 months of payroll (forgiveness can only be used over an 8 week period)

So 2 months of expenses are paid for. So there can be an argument for reduced or stopped payments next 2 months.

The grant has pretty specific usage requirements which arenít clear as of yet, and it may be considered part of the financial aid packages schools already received. Itís not clear yet. PPP paid for 2 months of payroll and weíll see what the grant ends up covering.

You can certainly ask for help if you find yourself in a tough spot because of corona but donít expect to be allowed to stay in a school if you just stop paying tuition..

I agree that you cant just stop payments without having a conversation from the school. But I think the schools should realize the situation that a lot of the families are in and maybe give something back (and dont get me started on asking parents to pay for kosher tablets... schools should be paying for that completely).

Offline cgr

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #155 on: April 20, 2020, 10:16:02 PM »
So file and then when they reject price it to the state by not having retrieved a paycheck

The DOL can open a labor case against the school for not paying in a timely fashion. Wage cases are notoriously biased against the employer, and they always find more stuff to hit you with. As a Yid she does not want to be the cause of this. (I understand I came across a bit harsh before but I think my further explanations explain it a bit. She's making every effort to do things the right way without causing them any harm while still trying to put food on the table while they...)

In my opinion the school will undoubtedly come running with the check if she had the backbone to tell them about the above but alas she doesn't. Even if she did does that mean that only those strong enough to fight for it will get paid in a timely manner? Also, how would you feel about facing your employer after having declared a willingness to take up a case against?

It's a thorny subject and the teachers are being left out to dry, with a lot more at stake than the Mosed, who has donors who will help it survive come what may. After hearing what a few of them are going through, I just couldn't hold back. Hope I didn't personally offend anyone.

Offline yzj

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #156 on: April 20, 2020, 10:18:41 PM »
So technically many schools can have pretty much zero expenses over the next few months. Payroll for the teachers paid by the PPP and other expenses paid by this grant (if it's a post high school institution). The argument for stopping Tuition payments just got stronger...


I think people are missing the point. The argument makes sense if youíre already paying full tuition but the vast majority of parents are paying a negotiated rate. That negotiated rate is based primarily on the parents ability to pay. If there are two less months in the school year, assuming the parent still has the same ability to pay, there is no reason to discount the already discounted rate. If the parentís income was impacted by the virus, the school may still have a floor as to how much they are willing to discount the tuition which is fully within their rights. Given that the schools expenses are somewhat lower perhaps they should give some consideration to accepting an even lower discounted tuition arrangement . But the basic premise that parents who are already paying a low negotiated rate -ďwhat they can afford to payĒ-should be able to withhold tuition is really missing the boat.

Offline Shua

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2020, 10:35:09 PM »

I think people are missing the point. The argument makes sense if youíre already paying full tuition but the vast majority of parents are paying a negotiated rate. That negotiated rate is based primarily on the parents ability to pay. If there are two less months in the school year, assuming the parent still has the same ability to pay, there is no reason to discount the already discounted rate. If the parentís income was impacted by the virus, the school may still have a floor as to how much they are willing to discount the tuition which is fully within their rights. Given that the schools expenses are somewhat lower perhaps they should give some consideration to accepting an even lower discounted tuition arrangement . But the basic premise that parents who are already paying a low negotiated rate -ďwhat they can afford to payĒ-should be able to withhold tuition is really missing the boat.

Do you think the vast majority of parents are paying a "what they can afford to pay" tuition?

Schools expenses are somewhat lower? Most schools must have significantly lower expenses (due to PPP and Grant), if not almost zero expenses over the next 2 months.

I think saying that now, where literally thousands of frum people have lost their jobs or had significant reductions in salary that perhaps a school should give some consideration to a tuition break (where you are making it sound like the schools are doing us the favor) is really missing the boat.

Offline ilherman

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2020, 10:39:37 PM »
1) What does this have to do with unemployment? Also, they are continuing classes so why would they put someone on unemployment? They need the teachers to continue working.



4) What is ďmaking off like banditsĒ even supposed to mean? These are non-profit schools that generally need to fundraise to balance their books. The head of each mossad makes a salary, usually a paltry one at that. Nobody is lmaking off like a banditĒ.
seriously? No school I know has given a break for tuition so why wouldn't they be able to pay their employees?

Non profits? You know how much Harvard is worth? Check how much they got.

One thing I'm disappointed from Trump. He didn't manage to clean the swamp. Which benefits the rich and well connected. While businesses are going under because ppp is out of funds, they have 8mm to give to Harvard.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline yzj

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Re: SBA PPP and EIDL Small Business Loans (some money is forgivable)
« Reply #159 on: April 20, 2020, 10:41:17 PM »
Do you think the vast majority of parents are paying a "what they can afford to pay" tuition?

Schools expenses are somewhat lower? Most schools must have significantly lower expenses (due to PPP and Grant), if not almost zero expenses over the next 2 months.

I think saying that now, where literally thousands of frum people have lost their jobs or had significant reductions in salary that perhaps a school should give some consideration to a tuition break (where you are making it sound like the schools are doing us the favor) is really missing the boat.

I see people advocating not paying tuition across the board, whether they lost their parnassa or not. That is not a reasonable position.