Author Topic: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female  (Read 854 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11357
  • Total likes: 3741
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2021, 05:06:44 PM »
But you were the OP who corrected nifteres to niftar, by your current rule nifteres shouldn’t have been corrected.

You're confusing Hebrew grammar with... (still trying to find out what)  ::)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26064
  • Total likes: 3227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2021, 05:07:42 PM »
Two different ה

I find it amazing how much back and forth can go on without answering the fundamental question I asked above. Without answering that question the discussion is pointless.

Same ה.

As to your question, since it’s colloquial use in a different language, I don’t think any correction is appropriate, especially when the “corrected” option suggested appears (at least to me) to be even less correct, even if that’s the common colloquial usage.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 868
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Tehillim for people with corona virus
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2021, 05:57:31 PM »
The proper way to use the word would be "the נפטרת was נפטר" in Hebrew I think it would be נפטרה הנפטרת
But you were the OP who corrected nifteres to niftar, by your current rule nifteres shouldn’t have been corrected.
avromie7 is using nifteres as a noun, referring to a person.  In English, "the deceased".   
His Hebrew sentence could have been written either    נפטרה הנפטרת or הנפטרת נפטרה  (commutative law of dikduk?) meaning the deceased (nifteres, noun) has passed away (niftara, verb).
His English sentence says that the deceased (nifteres, noun) was (verb) deceased (niftar, adjective).

Now in Hebrew we conjugate adjectives, but in English we don't, and the person is speaking English.

Similarly: Can a woman be yotzei with a man's bracha?  Or would she be yotzeis?  Or, if it happened yesterday, would you say she was yatza?

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13091
  • Total likes: 7744
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2021, 06:18:28 PM »
My kids would say the age was niftered
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11357
  • Total likes: 3741
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Re: Tehillim for people with corona virus
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2021, 06:30:11 PM »

Now in Hebrew we conjugate adjectives, but in English we don't, and the person is speaking English.

Is the person speaking English?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 868
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Tehillim for people with corona virus
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2021, 06:45:01 PM »
Is the person speaking English?
Yes, here's the original sentence:

I actually heard recently (on the Meaningful People Podcast) that when R' Reuven Feinstein's wife was nifteres after being hospitalized for a couple weeks, one of the first things that R' Reuven said was "please tell people that they can stop davening for her" as he didn't want to be matriach people by having them daven for her once she was nifteres.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26064
  • Total likes: 3227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2021, 07:10:31 PM »
l
Can a woman be yotzei with a man's bracha?  Or would she be yotzeis?  Or, if it happened yesterday, would you say she was yatza?

Thanks for the very clear explanation @biobook now I understand the הווה אמינא

So if someone corrects your example above and suggests the women was yotzais, would you correct them? I wouldn’t.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 868
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2021, 07:21:31 PM »
Thanks for the very clear explanation @biobook now I understand the הווה אמינא

So if someone corrects your example above and suggests the women was yotzais, would you correct them? I wouldn’t.
Not sure what you mean "would you correct them?"
Would I think that they're use of yotzais is not quite standard?  Yes.  If they had once asked me to correct any errors I hear in their language, would I point out that yotzais is nonstandard?  Yes.
If they hadn't asked me for advice would I bother to correct them and potentially embarrass them?  No.

I think this whole discussion gives us some insight into what life was like 1000 years ago, when Jews speaking French and German included Hebrew and Aramaic words when talking to each other.  Took a few centuries for Yiddish to be considered a full-fledged language of its own.  Maybe in another few centuries, Yinglish will be the standard frum-speak.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26064
  • Total likes: 3227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2021, 07:26:34 PM »
Not sure what you mean "would you correct them?"
Would I think that they're use of yotzais is not quite standard?  Yes.  If they had once asked me to correct any errors I hear in their language, would I point out that yotzais is nonstandard?  Yes.
If they hadn't asked me for advice would I bother to correct them and potentially embarrass them?  No.

I think this whole discussion gives us some insight into what life was like 1000 years ago, when Jews speaking French and German included Hebrew and Aramaic words when talking to each other.  Took a few centuries for Yiddish to be considered a full-fledged language of its own.  Maybe in another few centuries, Yinglish will be the standard frum-speak.

Somehow I disagree. You can’t apply the rules of a host language to borrowed words when the correct grammar by for the original language of the borrowed word was being used in the host language.

It’s not like the Hebrew words Chutzpah or Mazal Tov that have been ingested into English to the point that they’re in the dictionary, the word Niftar didn’t make it that far and likely never will.

As for Yinglish as a formal language with grammar rules of its own, it hasn’t happened yet, and if it does evolve into that in the future we can only guess what the grammar rules would look like.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 868
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2021, 07:53:34 PM »
Somehow I disagree. You can’t apply the rules of a host language to borrowed words when the correct grammar by for the original language of the borrowed word was being used in the host language.
But that's exactly what we do.  We borrow words of many languages into English, then apply our English grammar to them.  What sounds funny to us is when we hear Israelis do the same, using English words and applying Hebrew grammar to them.  I'm sure those living in Israel can think of examples, especially in tech fields.

Quote
As for Yinglish as a formal language with grammar rules of its own, it hasn’t happened yet, and if it does evolve into that in the future we can only guess what the grammar rules would look like.
Grammar rules are derived from observing the way language is used.  Chaim Weiser tried to do this in his book Frumspeak: The first dictionary of Yeshivish.  Here's a section that relates to the example we're discussing:

"Hebrew verbs have a complicated system of inflection for tense and person that would be hard to carry over into another language.  The solution has been to use the verb “to be” as an auxiliary verb and to treat the verb as a participle.  For example, “He was machshiv,” “They will be moide,” and so on.  The speaker considers these words to be verbs but uses them as adjectives."

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26064
  • Total likes: 3227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2021, 07:55:40 PM »
But that's exactly what we do.  We borrow words of many languages into English, then apply our English grammar to them.  What sounds funny to us is when we hear Israelis do the same, using English words and applying Hebrew grammar to them.  I'm sure those living in Israel can think of examples, especially in tech fields.

Instead of saying chips and jeans they say צ׳יפסים and ג׳ינסים, it sounds ridiculous

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26064
  • Total likes: 3227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2021, 07:56:45 PM »
Grammar rules are derived from observing the way language is used.  Chaim Weiser tried to do this in his book Frumspeak: The first dictionary of Yeshivish.  Here's a section that relates to the example we're discussing:

"Hebrew verbs have a complicated system of inflection for tense and person that would be hard to carry over into another language.  The solution has been to use the verb “to be” as an auxiliary verb and to treat the verb as a participle.  For example, “He was machshiv,” “They will be moide,” and so on.  The speaker considers these words to be verbs but uses them as adjectives."

Very interesting, a bit above my grammatical pay grade. Thanks for sharing/clarifying.

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: Re: Tehillim for people with corona virus
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2021, 08:22:10 PM »
+1
the "was" replaces the "ה" as the helping verb, and since in English there is no differentiation between male and female, for this hybrid it stays the same.
Thank you for the longer (more thorough) version:
But that's exactly what we do.  We borrow words of many languages into English, then apply our English grammar to them.  What sounds funny to us is when we hear Israelis do the same, using English words and applying Hebrew grammar to them.  I'm sure those living in Israel can think of examples, especially in tech fields.
Grammar rules are derived from observing the way language is used.  Chaim Weiser tried to do this in his book Frumspeak: The first dictionary of Yeshivish.  Here's a section that relates to the example we're discussing:

"Hebrew verbs have a complicated system of inflection for tense and person that would be hard to carry over into another language.  The solution has been to use the verb “to be” as an auxiliary verb and to treat the verb as a participle.  For example, “He was machshiv,” “They will be moide,” and so on.  The speaker considers these words to be verbs but uses them as adjectives."
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2021, 08:26:11 PM »
Instead of saying chips and jeans they say צ׳יפסים and ג׳ינסים, it sounds ridiculous
The funniest (to me) is how they take the Yiddish "fargin", and alter it to fit the Hebrew rules "Atah Tzarich Lifargen" "Ani Lo Mefargen Oto"
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 26064
  • Total likes: 3227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2021, 08:38:04 PM »
The funniest (to me) is how they take the Yiddish "fargin", and alter it to fit the Hebrew rules "Atah Tzarich Lifargen" "Ani Lo Mefargen Oto"

At this point it’s been absorbed into Hebrew. Wouldn’t they say “אני לא מפרגן לו”?

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2021, 08:42:25 PM »
Wouldn’t they say “אני לא מפרגן לו”?
It's possible. I don't remember.
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 11357
  • Total likes: 3741
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2021, 11:29:37 PM »
How about הוא התברמצוה?

That's not how they say it, and it's uniquely Israeli: הוא התברמץ
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Iz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 6615
  • Total likes: 427
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: Proper way to say “was Niftar” for Female
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2021, 11:31:53 PM »
That's not how they say it, and it's uniquely Israeli: הוא התברמץ
נכון!